CT 525 Late models. Where do they belong?

[W2Racing09]

If I remember right this SAME kind of question was asked a month or so back. Still going to get the same answers. Crate cars are gonna whine that they can't keep up with a super. Well guess what. That's why they are a "limited" late model. If you want to run your 525 with us supers then so be it. Happens quite often around here. Even have a few 604's tag the back too. Just quit whining that you can't keep up and want special privilages. YOU are asking to run with us remember. We aren't dropping back a class to run with 525's. If you don't think that big spoiler and a weight break gives an advantage, then you need to stick to bowling. If you want to step up and play, then play.

You think the big spoiler and weight break gives the advantage to a crate car over a super? I don't think there are many that would agree with that. There are several tracks allowing the CT525 engine with weight breaks and aero benefits but I don't see them cleaning the floor with the open motor cars. In fact more often than not they only pick up wins when the track is super slick.

I don't think it is any type of advantage to get a weight break, and nobody as asking you to change your Super at all. Just let the CT525 engines run with their rules package. If you are arguing that it shouldn't happen you have already lost because it happens every week at several tracks all over the country.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[slmcrewchief99]

Yes I know for a fact that spoiler, weight break, and engine setback is an advantage. I'm not new to racing. I've been here LONG before the inception of the Communist GM crate class started. I don't care if they are cleaning the floor or not. The fact is you are wanting to run a crate with us and give YOU a break. If you need all those "crutches" to make you fast then run the crate class with all the other crates. If you want to run with a super, then step up and run like a super.

[hygty]

ct 525 run pretty good with supers around UMP as long as its a bull ring

[hygty]

lucas and woo will not allow the ct 525 run can we ask why

[Drop Shock]

lucas and woo will not allow the ct 525 run can we ask why

Coil packs

[fastford]

Yes I know for a fact that spoiler, weight break, and engine setback is an advantage. I'm not new to racing. I've been here LONG before the inception of the Communist GM crate class started. I don't care if they are cleaning the floor or not. The fact is you are wanting to run a crate with us and give YOU a break. If you need all those "crutches" to make you fast then run the crate class with all the other crates. If you want to run with a super, then step up and run like a super.

you are 100% correct in my book, the only thing I would add to your comment in another post above about running them with the limiteds is the 525s should have to add enough weight in front of motor plate to be fair to the steel engines . also to the ones on here that think weight breaks and weight placement does not matter obviously has not done much with a late model, especially in the slick.

[FlatTire]

So to the haters that think a 12" spoiler is too much downforce, then what about the added drag it produces? How come none of you ever mention that?

And have any of you sat down and figured out the power/weight ratios of these engines before you started pecking away at the keyboard? I'm just wondering how you guys formulate your opinions?

Here are some common weights/power numbers for these engines:

Engine: 602-604-525-Spec-Open
HP :350-400-525-615-800
Weight:2200-2300-2250-2200-2300
HP/LBS:0.16-0.17-0.23-0.28-0.35

I've raced against all of these engine types before. Every one of them has a time and a place. Just like a shock.....you need the right shock for the right track, you need the right engine for the right track. Also, the torque/hp curves of these engines have a lot to do with how they perform on different conditions.

There was a race in Lousiana a few weeks ago and there was basically no difference in the lap times between the fastestd spec car and the fastest crate. With my spec motor I've been beat by crate cars and 525's. I've also beat open motor cars. The only place the open motors have a true advantage is on the big tracks(4/10mile, 1/2mile) but thats not to say races can't be won with less.

Didn't Steve Francis come from the rear to the front at East Bay this year on 7 cylinders? He would have been down around 100hp. William Thomas and Ronnie Johnson have won against open motors utilizing far less.

If you can't hook it up then its no good to you! I think most are too quick to blame lack of power rather than driver/setup ability as why they got out ran.

[W2Racing09]

Yes I know for a fact that spoiler, weight break, and engine setback is an advantage. I'm not new to racing. I've been here LONG before the inception of the Communist GM crate class started. I don't care if they are cleaning the floor or not. The fact is you are wanting to run a crate with us and give YOU a break. If you need all those "crutches" to make you fast then run the crate class with all the other crates. If you want to run with a super, then step up and run like a super.

It is an advantage over having nothing, but it certainly does not give them an edge over an open motor car. If it did then guys like Bloomquist, or Richards would be running them at Eldora or any other non WoO or Lucas series race. They do not have an advantage over Open cars no matter what you give them for breaks.

If you want the class to survive there needs to be a way to enter it at a price point lower than $20,000 and sustain it at a price point less than $2-$3k every year for a rebuild. I especially can't understand the push back when nobody is asking you to change your car. It is simply an issue of giving another type of car a chance to run at the back in all but the most slick conditions or on smaller tracks. You can see the problems, with several tracks having dropped the SLM division in my area, and others (like Potomac and Winchester) getting 15 cars for a $3k to win event. Are you telling me that nothing needs to be done to prop the division back up?

It probably wouldn't even take hold in the South where there are plenty of CT525 divisions racing. Here in the North East and in the Central States there is no CT525 series, I'm not aware of any place you can run the motor other than in an SLM.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[j1s]

When I was kid I had shirt that said "If you can't un with the BIG DAWGS then stay on the porch". I guess that kinda stuck with me, because I feel the exact same way today. Or as Rick Flair says "To be the man you gotta beat the man, and you gotta walk down that aisle stylin' and profilin' ". Face it, crates and 525s ain't stylin' and profilin', but Supers are.

[W2Racing09]

When I was kid I had shirt that said "If you can't un with the BIG DAWGS then stay on the porch". I guess that kinda stuck with me, because I feel the exact same way today. Or as Rick Flair says "To be the man you gotta beat the man, and you gotta walk down that aisle stylin' and profilin' ". Face it, crates and 525s ain't stylin' and profilin', but Supers are.

Serious question, have you ever witnessed a CT525 in a race?

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Bubstr]

The advantage a 525 gets, has already been claimed in the cost of purchase and operating expense. If they wish to run with the open late model, let them run, as long as they meet the rules. There needs to be a start up class, but there doesn't need to be 5 of them. If you lump all the start up classes together and handicap, it opens a big can of worms for tech and the ability for racers to race at more than one track.

I feel, we have too many classes. Hornets, street stock super stock, A mod, B mod Econo mod, mini mod, big block mod, touring mod, UMP mod, super mod, limited LM, steel block LM, steel head LM, crate LM, 525 crate LM, IMCA LM, SLM, open LM and use these tires here but those there, these shocks here and those there, chips here and no chips there. None of them are cheap and a 10 car field is a bummer.

Over the years racers and touring groups and tracks, have got together and standardized rules so racers can run anywhere. It might be time for that to happen again.

[W2Racing09]

The advantage a 525 gets, has already been claimed in the cost of purchase and operating expense. If they wish to run with the open late model, let them run, as long as they meet the rules. There needs to be a start up class, but there doesn't need to be 5 of them. If you lump all the start up classes together and handicap, it opens a big can of worms for tech and the ability for racers to race at more than one track.

I feel, we have too many classes. Hornets, street stock super stock, A mod, B mod Econo mod, mini mod, big block mod, touring mod, UMP mod, super mod, limited LM, steel block LM, steel head LM, crate LM, 525 crate LM, IMCA LM, SLM, open LM and use these tires here but those there, these shocks here and those there, chips here and no chips there. None of them are cheap and a 10 car field is a bummer.

Over the years racers and touring groups and tracks, have got together and standardized rules so racers can run anywhere. It might be time for that to happen again.

That argument I can't stand. The cost is certainly an advantage, but using that argument I might as well not race because that is a huge cost savings over racing. Nobody will consider it if it does not get breaks to be competitive.

You would expect someone to buy a $10k motor, and a $20k car to put it in and then happily wave at the leaders as they get lapped for the third time and say well at least I didn't spend as much as them... No they will just quit racing.

If it does not have any effect on the other cars in any way then there is no reason not to give the CT525 some breaks to allow it to compete. Nobody is asking for it to be dominant, just for it to have a chance. If there is a way to get the CT525 to be able to run similar lap times to the Open LM then what is the harm in it?

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

The advantage a 525 gets, has already been claimed in the cost of purchase and operating expense. If they wish to run with the open late model, let them run, as long as they meet the rules. There needs to be a start up class, but there doesn't need to be 5 of them. If you lump all the start up classes together and handicap, it opens a big can of worms for tech and the ability for racers to race at more than one track.

I feel, we have too many classes. Hornets, street stock super stock, A mod, B mod Econo mod, mini mod, big block mod, touring mod, UMP mod, super mod, limited LM, steel block LM, steel head LM, crate LM, 525 crate LM, IMCA LM, SLM, open LM and use these tires here but those there, these shocks here and those there, chips here and no chips there. None of them are cheap and a 10 car field is a bummer.

Over the years racers and touring groups and tracks, have got together and standardized rules so racers can run anywhere. It might be time for that to happen again.

I agree with the part about all of the divisions, so how does it help to relegate the CT525 to its own division? Are you saying the motor should not be used in dirt track racing applications? A $10,000 crate motor that is capable of racing with the SLM division with a few breaks and has rebuild costs that are a fraction of that of an open motor should not be considered for dirt track racing?

[hucktyson]

Jeff the problem is that if guys don't have money to rebuild the motors they already have where would they get the 12k to get a 525 in their car ???

[fastford]

So to the haters that think a 12" spoiler is too much downforce, then what about the added drag it produces? How come none of you ever mention that?

And have any of you sat down and figured out the power/weight ratios of these engines before you started pecking away at the keyboard? I'm just wondering how you guys formulate your opinions?

Here are some common weights/power numbers for these engines:

Engine: 602-604-525-Spec-Open
HP :350-400-525-615-800
Weight:2200-2300-2250-2200-2300
HP/LBS:0.16-0.17-0.23-0.28-0.35

I've raced against all of these engine types before. Every one of them has a time and a place. Just like a shock.....you need the right shock for the right track, you need the right engine for the right track. Also, the torque/hp curves of these engines have a lot to do with how they perform on different conditions.

There was a race in Lousiana a few weeks ago and there was basically no difference in the lap times between the fastestd spec car and the fastest crate. With my spec motor I've been beat by crate cars and 525's. I've also beat open motor cars. The only place the open motors have a true advantage is on the big tracks(4/10mile, 1/2mile) but thats not to say races can't be won with less.

Didn't Steve Francis come from the rear to the front at East Bay this year on 7 cylinders? He would have been down around 100hp. William Thomas and Ronnie Johnson have won against open motors utilizing far less.

If you can't hook it up then its no good to you! I think most are too quick to blame lack of power rather than driver/setup ability as why they got out ran.

if you were running the supr spec then of course your gone get beat, 60cc heads and flat top pistons and steel block are no match for a 525 , plus you have to pull more weight, whats fair about that? or maybe you love these generic box engines so much you don't care. I am a spec motor person and switched to the sas spec where I can at least run a dome piston, but still have more front end weight and have to pull 50 more lbs. and your example of francis at east bay means nothing to me, an all aluminum engine going from 850 t0 750hp probable helped him. my opinion of the 525 is yes they can run super if they want but I stand by my idea of no special privileges , I don't consider that hating, but being fair, kind of sounds like your hating on the supers , the ones that can afford to buy an open engine and the ones like me that are loyal to my brand and have to build my own, so take it how ever you want. oh, and in my opinion, what happened to asphalt short track racing was a crate engine, example ASA .