Milliken DQ'd 4/30 WoO

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I have not seen him finish top 3 in the LOLMDS or WoO in the past, I thought they only test the top 3 or 5?

I have a lot more respect for you than to think you will believe that a business (that wouldn't survive without the support of local drivers) would go out of their way to fabricate a fake lab result which ends in the best story of their season so far turning into one of the most negative. This does not help the WoO in any way, in fact all it has effectively done is create topics such as this. The lab wouldn't risk their reputation on going along with a lie either.

As a person who has run a laboratory, certainly you would never falsify a report. But, pass/fail criteria is determined by the customer if no testing specification exists.

[W2Racing09]

As a person who has run a laboratory, certainly you would never falsify a report. But, pass/fail criteria is determined by the customer if no testing specification exists.

I don't think there is any type of conspiracy here. They submitted the benchmarks provided to them by Hoosier (or whichever tire manufacturer is involved) of that I am sure. I don't understand what is so difficult to believe about it. He is not the first to treat tires, and certainly won't be the last. If he says he didn't then the only other explanation is that his tires came into contact with a chemical that had an effect on them.

Last season countless locals/regional drivers won WoO races and all of them made it through tech. Ogle Jr. at Tazwell, hell Ferguson won both of the WoO races on the NC swing last season and passed both times. If they wanted to falsify lab results and DQ someone for no reason they would have done so when JD (A Lucas driver) was making all the WoO drivers look like fools last season. At least then they would have had a motive..

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Barbecueboy]

I have not seen him finish top 3 in the LOLMDS or WoO in the past, I thought they only test the top 3 or 5?

I have a lot more respect for you than to think you will believe that a business (that wouldn't survive without the support of local drivers) would go out of their way to fabricate a fake lab result which ends in the best story of their season so far turning into one of the most negative. This does not help the WoO in any way, in fact all it has effectively done is create topics such as this. The lab wouldn't risk their reputation on going along with a lie either.

I've never once said or implied that it's some sort of mega conspiracy theory......just saying he passed a clash and a fuel tire test prior to the woo deal, and has subsequently passed the testing done for the big limited race he won and now apparently another touring series big win test that he will pass.

Just seems odd that he would fail the woo test when he came back clean before in some pretty big races and now after in some pretty big races.....

All I'm saying is, people make mistakes, that lab has made mistakes and the milliken team has absolutely no way to appeal it..............oh, and to my knowledge They have passed every single tire sample testing procedure except for the woo race fwiw......limited, 525 and super.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I don't think there is any type of conspiracy here. They submitted the benchmarks provided to them by Hoosier (or whichever tire manufacturer is involved) of that I am sure. I don't understand what is so difficult to believe about it. He is not the first to treat tires, and certainly won't be the last. If he says he didn't then the only other explanation is that his tires came into contact with a chemical that had an effect on them.

Last season countless locals/regional drivers won WoO races and all of them made it through tech. Ogle Jr. at Tazwell, hell Ferguson won both of the WoO races on the NC swing last season and passed both times. If they wanted to falsify lab results and DQ someone for no reason they would have done so when JD (A Lucas driver) was making all the WoO drivers look like fools last season. At least then they would have had a motive..

Thanks,
Jeff.

I didn't say there was a conspiracy. I am saying that sometimes, IMO, the wrong conclusion is drawn from data. That is all. I have no idea what happened here.

[W2Racing09]

I didn't say there was a conspiracy. I am saying that sometimes, IMO, the wrong conclusion is drawn from data. That is all. I have no idea what happened here.

My apologies, I have a problem replying with quotes sometimes. My response was not directed at you specifically.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

I've never once said or implied that it's some sort of mega conspiracy theory......just saying he passed a clash and a fuel tire test prior to the woo deal, and has subsequently passed the testing done for the big limited race he won and now apparently another touring series big win test that he will pass.

Just seems odd that he would fail the woo test when he came back clean before in some pretty big races and now after in some pretty big races.....

All I'm saying is, people make mistakes, that lab has made mistakes and the milliken team has absolutely no way to appeal it..............oh, and to my knowledge They have passed every single tire sample testing procedure except for the woo race fwiw......limited, 525 and super.

That certainly is true, I know Jimmy Owens got caught by the NDRL and has since (and previously) passed tech all over the place with LOLMDS, WoO and everything else. That does not mean for sure that he A) Didn't treat tires before that incident, and it does not mean B) He does not treat them now. It just means on that night he was running tires that tested positive for tire treatment. The tires are essentially disposable so if he tries it, gets caught he probably won't take the chance again.

As far as the lab making a mistake, I believe the DoD article said they ran the tests several times and each time they came back positive. It is unlikely the lab made the same mistake more than once.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Barbecueboy]

That certainly is true, I know Jimmy Owens got caught by the NDRL and has since (and previously) passed tech all over the place with LOLMDS, WoO and everything else. That does not mean for sure that he A) Didn't treat tires before that incident, and it does not mean B) He does not treat them now. It just means on that night he was running tires that tested positive for tire treatment. The tires are essentially disposable so if he tries it, gets caught he probably won't take the chance again.

As far as the lab making a mistake, I believe the DoD article said they ran the tests several times and each time they came back positive. It is unlikely the lab made the same mistake more than once.

Thanks,
Jeff.

Its easy to make the same mistake more than once............especially if the data going in is incorrect.
Ask Scott Autry how that lab made the same mistake multiple times ........and then changed their mind.

Why do you suppose they tested the same sample three different times???.....If it's so accurate , why test more than once?

Why? Because maybe a couple of the tests came back inconclusive ???


You have Willie and crew all but hung, when in fact he hasn't even gotten a fair trial......and shame on them for not being a member so it could be appealed.

[W2Racing09]

Its easy to make the same mistake more than once............especially if the data going in is incorrect.
Ask Scott Autry how that lab made the same mistake multiple times ........and then changed their mind.

Why do you suppose they tested the same sample three different times???.....If it's so accurate , why test more than once?

Why? Because maybe a couple of the tests came back inconclusive ???


You have Willie and crew all but hung, when in fact he hasn't even gotten a fair trial......and shame on them for not being a member so it could be appealed.

They probably tested it three times so that they could say they double checked to the countless people who would immediately reply demanding that the results be checked again.

I'm not saying its impossible that they are innocent. What I am saying it is WoO vs Milliken word of mouth basically but WoO also has an independent lab backing up their side. The evidence is highly stacked on one side. Everyone wants to make WRG/WoO out to be the bad guys here but they would have nothing to gain from falsely screwing over Milliken.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[huskerdirt]

Here's how the Autry deal went down.....

https://www.dirtondirt.com/story_5455.html

[Barbecueboy]

They probably tested it three times so that they could say they double checked to the countless people who would immediately reply demanding that the results be checked again.

I'm not saying its impossible that they are innocent. What I am saying it is WoO vs Milliken word of mouth basically but WoO also has an independent lab backing up their side. The evidence is highly stacked on one side. Everyone wants to make WRG/WoO out to be the bad guys here but they would have nothing to gain from falsely screwing over Milliken.

Thanks,
Jeff.

An independent lab that has made mistakes establishing what a benchmark actually was for a tire........that same independent lab?

There has been precedent set , that lab got it wrong before , and admitted it.........but only after appeal........which the milliken team aren't allowed to do because of a technicality.

It's highly doubtful they got it wrong, but certainly not out of the realm or impossible as you have ruled.............the whole tire testing thing is sucky anyway, let em run open tire rules.

[Barbecueboy]

Here's how the Autry deal went down.....


https://www.dirtondirt.com/story_5455.html

Yep........just like that.

Lab had bad info to test against.

That could never happen again.

[Snake X3]

They probably tested it three times so that they could say they double checked to the countless people who would immediately reply demanding that the results be checked again.

I'm not saying its impossible that they are innocent. What I am saying it is WoO vs Milliken word of mouth basically but WoO also has an independent lab backing up their side. The evidence is highly stacked on one side. Everyone wants to make WRG/WoO out to be the bad guys here but they would have nothing to gain from falsely screwing over Milliken.

Thanks,
Jeff.

What does WoO/WRG have to gain? One thing would be a series regular gets the prestige of finally winning a race and also gets the money. Another thing would be the perception that a local guy couldn't whip their best. Sure...Fergy beat the WoO guys in NC last year, but Milliken ain't Fergy, (No offense to Willie) he's a local guy. Outside of NC even people that follow the sport closely didn't know who he was.

Do I think there is some sort of conspiracy? Nope. My point is that some people could think WoO/WRG had something to gain. The bigger question is why people are so suspicious of WoO/WRG? Having a rule that denies non-members the right to appeal only gives conspiracy theorists more fuel to throw on the fire. If there is nothing to hide, why not allow him to appeal? If it's such a feel good story then I'd think they'd want to do everything in their power to give the guy a fair shake. What better way to shut up people that think WoO/WRG plays favorites towards their own than to allow an outside the same privileges as a member? If it's the cost of testing, let Milliken appeal if he is willing pay.

Maybe I'm outside the norm, but if it was me in WoO's shoes I would rather let a guilty party fail to prove their innocence than let my integrity be questioned.

[Barbecueboy]

What does WoO/WRG have to gain? One thing would be a series regular gets the prestige of finally winning a race and also gets the money. Another thing would be the perception that a local guy couldn't whip their best. Sure...Fergy beat the WoO guys in NC last year, but Milliken ain't Fergy, (No offense to Willie) he's a local guy. Outside of NC even people that follow the sport closely didn't know who he was.

Do I think there is some sort of conspiracy? Nope. My point is that some people could think WoO/WRG had something to gain. The bigger question is why people are so suspicious of WoO/WRG? Having a rule that denies non-members the right to appeal only gives conspiracy theorists more fuel to throw on the fire. If there is nothing to hide, why not allow him to appeal? If it's such a feel good story then I'd think they'd want to do everything in their power to give the guy a fair shake. What better way to shut up people that think WoO/WRG plays favorites towards their own than to allow an outside the same privileges as a member? If it's the cost of testing, let Milliken appeal if he is willing pay.

Maybe I'm outside the norm, but if it was me in WoO's shoes I would rather let a guilty party fail to prove their innocence than let my integrity be questioned.

That was pretty well spoken right there........


And fwiw, I appreciate the intent of keeping it all fair for everybody ............just don't think the answer is " independent" lab testing.

Two best or easiest answers I see right now are open tire or series issued rubber..........everything after that is just a big stfu and there will always be questions.

I vote for stfu and do either and concentrate on the rest of the rampant DLM cheating that everybody theorizes about.

[toyracer]

Something I don't think has been mentioned. Are the test conducted for WOO & Clash & Fuel the same test?

I for one don't know. Could WOO be paying for a more extensive test than other smaller series?

Again I don't know but would like to know if that can be answered.

[Snake X3]

That was pretty well spoken right there........

Thanks.

Two best or easiest answers I see right now are open tire or series issued rubber..........everything after that is just a big stfu and there will always be questions.

I vote for stfu and do either and concentrate on the rest of the rampant DLM cheating that everybody theorizes about.

I was going to reply to your comment about the open tire rules earlier, but I wore myself out writing that long post. LOL As with almost everything in life, my opinion is the less rules the better. I'm firmly in the "run what ya brung" camp. I don't know how an open tire rule would work, but it sounds good to me. I thought part of the reason for the testing was EPA regulations.