crate cheating and Mullins

[calverton]

Just because someone has the title of "official" or "inspector" and walks around a car doesn't mean they inspected it. You would know this if you actually did something other than cruise the concession stand. It's jokers like you that make it hard to have an intelligent conversation about the actual state of modified racing. I can tell you that this board was a much better place when you and your buddy were not allowed to post. Just my opinion as a car owner and driver. Don't bother asking for any details either. I'm following your lead on that one.

iI GEUSS P AND G ING A MOTOR IS NOT TECH i GUESS CHECKING THE CAR B IS NOT TECH OR CHECKING THE SUSPENSION IS WHAT ITS SUPPOSE TOBE LIKE NO CHAIN LIMITERS THEY CAME UP WITH WHICH IS PURE GARBAGE

[GavinHunyady187]

One of our region's IMCA licensed rebuilders currently has a rebuilt 604 for sale. On alcohol it dynoed 492 HP, 489 torque. Pretty much says it all to the guy who buys a new stock one from GM. The winning 602s are just as bad in the Sport or B Mods.

Just some food for thought

1. the 400hp advertised output is a brand new (green) engine, on pump gas, the break-in cycle alone will increase output
2. after the GM spec break-in cycle mine made 467hp on non-oxygenated, unleaded racegas, alky should make more
3. intentionally or not, if care isnt taken to set the correction factor on a dyno to the SAE spec, you can get all sorts of misleading numbers (which is why most people only compare A-to-B on the same test day)

[brownIdriller]

[QUOTE=calverton;2068518]iI GEUSS P AND G ING A MOTOR IS NOT TECH i GUESS CHECKING THE CAR B IS NOT TECH OR CHECKING THE SUSPENSION IS WHAT ITS SUPPOSE TOBE LIKE NO CHAIN LIMITERS THEY CAME UP WITH WHICH IS PURE GARBAGE[/

= BBbbbrrrrtttttt!!

[stock car driver]

Just some food for thought

1. the 400hp advertised output is a brand new (green) engine, on pump gas, the break-in cycle alone will increase output
2. after the GM spec break-in cycle mine made 467hp on non-oxygenated, unleaded racegas, alky should make more
3. intentionally or not, if care isnt taken to set the correction factor on a dyno to the SAE spec, you can get all sorts of misleading numbers (which is why most people only compare A-to-B on the same test day)

Ive dyno crates that had ten minutes on them and dyno them again at 30,60,120 nights, when is this break in you speak of over? Ive never had one gain hp they've all been within 5 of the first time I dyno them.

[GavinHunyady187]

Ive dyno crates that had ten minutes on them and dyno them again at 30,60,120 nights, when is this break in you speak of over? Ive never had one gain hp they've all been within 5 of the first time I dyno them.

That's awesome! I suppose you know this, but... depending on where you bought it, it may have already had the break-in done. I don't know what you tell you, but I know in production engines there is a pretty big variation prior to break-in (which is why it exists). I think Karl's and Freisen both sell engines that have run the break in, but IDK for sure. There is a whole industry for the latemodel crowd on tar and dirt for "blueprinting" engines based on this variation though.

Calibrating the dyno, and adjusting the correction factor is a big deal. Probably others have more experience but, I've never seen a racing shop do it right. Mostly because they can't do it right due to the climate control in their facilities. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors in that game, and not all of it is intentional.

Section 5.1 of SAE J1349 explains that the correction factor is applicable for air temperatures between 15C-35C, with a barometer of 900 to 1050mb, in "dry" air <-- meaning anywhere in the midwest requires A/C in the cell, which I've never seen at a "race" shop.

Your statement is the reason why the crate is a good thing, 120 nights with that level of consistency... and people think its a bad thing? I have to think that if you're seeing results that consistent that you ARE doing this correctly, or you're incredibly lucky, but either way I'm sure you can understand why its tough to trust ANY long term testing results at face value.

I should have mentioned that I don't necessarily trust the rating on mine that I got from Karl's for the same reason, and that 400hp from GM is likely underrated to ensure that it never tests below advertised... and that is probably a LOT bigger difference than any other factor.

Did you ever sell that 406? I'll be out your way in January, I'd be interested in picking it up if you still have it.

[rustymod]

sounds like the new packages that Mullins will offer will certainly dyno much better than the factory specs.

[stock car driver]

That's awesome! I suppose you know this, but... depending on where you bought it, it may have already had the break-in done. I don't know what you tell you, but I know in production engines there is a pretty big variation prior to break-in (which is why it exists). I think Karl's and Freisen both sell engines that have run the break in, but IDK for sure. There is a whole industry for the latemodel crowd on tar and dirt for "blueprinting" engines based on this variation though.

Calibrating the dyno, and adjusting the correction factor is a big deal. Probably others have more experience but, I've never seen a racing shop do it right. Mostly because they can't do it right due to the climate control in their facilities. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors in that game, and not all of it is intentional.

Section 5.1 of SAE J1349 explains that the correction factor is applicable for air temperatures between 15C-35C, with a barometer of 900 to 1050mb, in "dry" air <-- meaning anywhere in the midwest requires A/C in the cell, which I've never seen at a "race" shop.

Your statement is the reason why the crate is a good thing, 120 nights with that level of consistency... and people think its a bad thing? I have to think that if you're seeing results that consistent that you ARE doing this correctly, or you're incredibly lucky, but either way I'm sure you can understand why its tough to trust ANY long term testing results at face value.

I should have mentioned that I don't necessarily trust the rating on mine that I got from Karl's for the same reason, and that 400hp from GM is likely underrated to ensure that it never tests below advertised... and that is probably a LOT bigger difference than any other factor.

Did you ever sell that 406? I'll be out your way in January, I'd be interested in picking it up if you still have it.

still have it

if your getting 467hp crates on gas from karls I would stick with those

[calverton]

never seen a dyno win a race

[GavinHunyady187]

still have it

if your getting 467hp crates on gas from karls I would stick with those

its just a piece of paper... thats the whole point of this conversation.

[rustymod]

the issue with crates are not the dyno numbers but rather the lack of tech the fact there is plenty of upgrades going on with no inspection taking place.

[calverton]

And it's not ump being the bad ones either imagine that

[rustymod]

And it's not ump being the bad ones either imagine that

still trying to defend UMP. UMP techs the least of any major sanction. They are NOT teching crates at all. sure you MIGHT have seen it once at the one track you go to. The truth is UMP is not teching anyone much less crates.
Anyone that runs UMP Bmod can tell you this without a doubt. Wake up and quit kissing UMP's backside every chance you get. Not sure why you constantly try to defend the poorest ran sanction of all time but everyone else knows that UMP does not tech. tell Sam that when you see him at Christmas dinner.

[calverton]

All sanctions. Have issues and I wish the bmods would die again

[rustymod]

All sanctions. Have issues and I wish the bmods would die again

better yet too bad your login in does not die again. bmods are not going anywhere because A mods are expensive in fact bmods and sport mods are growing much faster.

sure no sanction is perfect, too bad UMP is the worst, no tech, rules rarely posted before the season and no one is running the ship. Sam and the gang dont do much other than hang out in NC and count Hoosier money.

[brownIdriller]

All sanctions. Have issues and I wish the bmods would die again

Yet more proof you have no clue about the state of racing, or what's good for the future of it. The B-mod or Sport mod class is the fastest growing class at most tracks due to sanctioning bodies and promoters not enforcing rules for higher classes, resulting in the classes being too expensive and pricing themselves out of existence. At one track I attend frequently, the B-mods pull in 30+ cars for a weekly show, the A-mods only pull in 17-20 cars and A-mods are the top billing. (Just so you understand, there are no Late Models, or Sprint cars at this particular track due to the costs of running them.) Those 30 cars run for $300 to win, and $35 to start. Each of them pay a pit pass of $25 plus an average of 3 crew so that's $100 x 30 or $3000. This helps pay the purse for the A-mods and some of the other classes. So killing off a class will result in a loss of revenue, and could ultimately force a track to close it's gates. Would that be good for racing? Like I've said before, leave racing to racers and go back to something you know about like concessions, chasing you buddy around the rest area, UFO's etc.