Thinking about FASTRACK

[Racer63]

I've bought springs from them on your advice but unfortunately we have to buy our motors form a dealer in DE that the track partners with and puts there own seals on. Maybe I'll call him and see if he can tell me what to look for. I'm sure the guys we have to buy them from have no clue and I don't know how much inventory they have sitting around.

[#1loser]

602 vs 604

look up www.race-1.com brad hibbards has some good imput on the 602 and 604 he is a awsome builder and helpfull im new to the class i wouldent run the 602 y start with some thing thats not right just some thing ya have to fix later better % makes a better car

[RacerX10]

If you get the %'s where you want them on a 602, by my math a 602 should be dead nuts equal to a 604 in straight line acceleration .. and a 602 at 150 lbs lighter should get thru the corners a lot better.

Nesmith 602 cars weigh 2200, the 604 weighs 2350.

I don't have any experience with either, but I'm about to build a car and figured that the 602 would be the way to go on a short track with that much of a weight break.

Thoughts ?

[hms_11]

We built a crate car last year with the idea that the 602 weight break was worth the lost horsepower. Here is what we discovered:

This car had lightweight everything and we just barely got the car light enough to take advantage of the 602. We ended up with absolutely no lead in the car and set our % using fuel load and by moving the fuel cell and battery. This was a 1 3/4" black front 2007 Rocket, mag rear, mag trans, mag bell, gunddrilled axles, carbon driveshaft, hell the thing even had "light weight" zeus buttons. This was with a 200lb driver and we would set the car to be about 25lbs above min weight after the feature.

We run 2 tracks regularly, one is a 5/8mile and one is a 1/3 mile bullring. The 602 was fine at the 1/3 mile and we never felt like we were fighting a losing battle with the 602. Most of the features at the 1/3 mile were won by 602 cars. On the 5/8 it was a different story. We found that the powerband on the 602 seemed to short and we were constantly chasing gearing. If we geared the car to come out of the corner we would get passed about 2/3 of the way down the straight. If we geared for the straights we couldnt keep it turned high enough to come out of the corner. Now I do have to say that our car would roll the corner faster then just about every other car out there. But it was a constant battle, win in the corners, lose it all down the straight.

Next year we are running a 604. If we were just running the short tracks we probably wouldn't bother but the 1/2 mile and bigger really show the difference. JMO

[DIRTRAYCER]

Sorry...

but I am speaking from experience and you can just forget running equal to the good 604s with good equipment and good Drivers ,while running the 602 ! Not sure what math you used and I am not trying to be smart here, but the 602 Factory is 60 -90 + Horses Down to the 604 Factory ! The 602 is only making around 330 H.P the 604 is now at 400 + ! If you figure weight to Horsepower ratio the 602 is 6.8 lbs per Horse at 2,200 lbs! The 604 is 5.8 lbs per horse at 2350 lbs! The 602 is still carrying 1 lb per horsepower more than the 604, as well as the 604 can handle more RPMs allowing them to carry much more gear ! The 604 would have to carry 2750 lbs. to a 602 at 2200 lbs. to have the same weight to horsepower ratio if my math is right ! Its just plain and simple the 602 is a waste of time and money if you are going to run under current rules in FASTRAK , Nesmith and desire to run up front ! Plus you cant get your %s right with the 602 at the minimum weight, assuming you could even get there. We cant !

[RacerX10]

The 602 was fine at the 1/3 mile and we never felt like we were fighting a losing battle with the 602. Most of the features at the 1/3 mile were won by 602 cars. On the 5/8 it was a different story. We found that the powerband on the 602 seemed to short and we were constantly chasing gearing. If we geared the car to come out of the corner we would get passed about 2/3 of the way down the straight. If we geared for the straights we couldnt keep it turned high enough to come out of the corner. Now I do have to say that our car would roll the corner faster then just about every other car out there. But it was a constant battle, win in the corners, lose it all down the straight.

Next year we are running a 604. If we were just running the short tracks we probably wouldn't bother but the 1/2 mile and bigger really show the difference. JMO

This is exactly what I expected based on the numbers I was running. Thank you VERY much for the feedback.

The local track here is 1/4 mile and more often than not is dry. Also, I'm a 150 lb driver.

[RacerX10]

Not sure what math you used and I am not trying to be smart here, but the 602 Factory is 60 -90 + Horses Down to the 604 Factory ! The 602 is only making around 330 H.P the 604 is now at 400 + ! If you figure weight to Horsepower ratio

"Horsepower" and "Weight" are irrelevant.

You need to be looking at torque, mass, initial velocity, μk (kinetic friction) and distance.

At 200 meters, the 602 vs 604 (both of which are near enough to 400 ft-lb of torque to not matter) it's nearly a wash for that distance. I'll grant you that when you run things out a bit longer (as on a 1/3 or 1/2 mile track) the 604 comes out ahead but for the shorter tracks, there's nothing in it and I suspect the better corner entry on a lighter car wins the day (all other things being equal)

[DIRTRAYCER]

Maybe on Paper, but not on Track !

""Horsepower" and "Weight" are irrelevant.

You need to be looking at torque, mass, initial velocity, μk (kinetic friction) and distance.

At 200 meters, the 602 vs 604 (both of which are near enough to 400 ft-lb of torque to not matter) it's nearly a wash for that distance. I'll grant you that when you run things out a bit longer (as on a 1/3 or 1/2 mile track) the 604 comes out ahead but for the shorter tracks, there's nothing in it and I suspect the better corner entry on a lighter car wins the day (all other things being equal) " RacerX10

RacerX10,
I do believe that weight and horsepower are very relevant, we will just have to agree to disagree on that ! I understand your arguement ! But you are assuming too much with way too many variables ! As I stated the 604 allows a car to carry close to 40 points lower in gear! That most definitely would affect the first 200 meters! Believe me , we see it every week as we run a 602 on tracks that are 4/10, 3/8 miles ! You are not taking into consideration, for another Traction and at what point Traction is lost ! The Hoosier 200 allows the 604s to get more power and torque to the ground than the Old GoodYears did ! We consistently get pulled off the Corners and on Restarts ! You can sit down with a calculator and punch it as long as you want and you may be able to come up with a mathematical formula to show equality between the 2 with a 150 lb weight break, but try it on the Track , and I think you will find out what everyone running except for hms11 has found and that is the 602 WILL NOT run with the 604 UNDER THE CURRENT RULES ! I would like to know where He runs , if we could get there I would love to run, because everywhere we go, the 604 is DOMINANT ! Just think about it, do you honestly believe if Drivers like Davenport,Diemel,Buckingham,Peger,Blair, etc. felt that the 602 was Equal to or better, that they would all be running the 604 ! Ask Chris Steele ? I am not talking theories here, I am talking real world on track experience ! I wish you the best of luck with the 602 ! I hope we can get a 604 soon !

[DIRTRAYCER]

hms 11

Could you please tell me what tracks you are running where 602s are beating 604s weekly ! Very interesting ! Thanks !

[RacerX10]

I'd be interested in seeing a year's worth of results on a < 1/2 mile track with a good field of cars so we can see how the 602's do vs the 604's.

Surely somebody's track has posted that information ?

[hms_11]

Brighton Speedway, Ontario
I just did some checking, the 602's did not dominate but they did win more features 6 for the 602 vs 4 for the 604's

To be fair, this is the first year that crate lates have been at this track (DIRT PRO late model) and most of the drivers in the class (myself included) came from either street stocks or IMCA/UMP style modifieds the year before.

The 602's never seemed to have any problem hooking up, no matter how slicked off it was the 602 cars could come out of the corner and just mash the gas, our biggest problems with the 602 cars was fighting a constant throttle tight situation for quite a few of the drivers (I had a huge throttle push problem). The 604 cars seemed to need a little foot work to hook up once it really slicked off, but no real hook up problems with them either.

Like I said before, we are running a 604 next year, overall I beleive it is more cost-effective and easier to get the % right on the car without going nuts with ultra-light stuff. Let alone the better motor to have if your on anything over 1/3 mile. JMO

[RacerX10]

Like I said before, we are running a 604 next year, overall I beleive it is more cost-effective and easier to get the % right on the car without going nuts with ultra-light stuff. Let alone the better motor to have if your on anything over 1/3 mile. JMO

That may be reason enough to go with the 604

Ease of use.

[Lazer-10]

602's are good and VERY competative

At our track most of the cars are 604's but the top 3 in points all year were 602's and the point champ beat out many of the WOO late Models to Qualify for their tour race and finished 16 in there feature. Another 602 missed qualifing by one spot 602's are a GOOD motor will actually help getting off the corner without burning up tires PS I know I dont spell that well but you will figure itt out

[DIRTRAYCER]

Wow !

At our track most of the cars are 604's but the top 3 in points all year were 602's and the point champ beat out many of the WOO late Models to Qualify for their tour race and finished 16 in there feature. Another 602 missed qualifing by one spot 602's are a GOOD motor will actually help getting off the corner without burning up tires PS I know I dont spell that well but you will figure itt out

That is amazing, that a 602 Crate qualified for a W.O.O. Touring race and finished 16th in the Feature ! With the 602 we have always ran well 1/2 way through the Feature against the 604s , we just dont seem to fall off as much but Qualifying has always been tough when the track is tacky and the 604s can hook ! The Supers at Our Track 3/8 mile- Qualify over 2 seconds faster than the fastest 604 ! And we have some good 604s !!! What W.O.O. Tour Race was it that a 602 made the field and ran 16th ?

[dynoman14]

Looks like a great thread. All things being equal in any race car, any series, I will take the engine that makes 100 more HPand weighs almost 100# lighter on the nose and up high where the heads are. I have engine dyno'd and chassis dyno'd probably 250-604's and only 10-602's and the best 602 was still about 50HP down to the best 604. For the extra $2000 I don't think you can take equal cars and make the 602 improve as much as the difference in engine.

Carbs are a huge difference but that can be said about both engines, I still think the biggest gain that can be made on any race engine is matching the burn curve of the fuel you are running to the engine you are running. This is done thru matching your carb and distributor to the acceleration rate of your engine. 602, 604 SB-2 Cup it makes the biggest difference of anything I have tested in 25 years on my Inertia Chassis dyno ( we concentrate on acceleration factor, and instantaneous acceleration) .

I like the 602's and have made good power gains with them but the nose weight is not possible to overcome, and after all handling and maintaining corner speed is the key to making any race car fast. Less nose = better rear % which is a big key at most tracks, especially when you are trying to keep chassis free from the middle off.

Running way less power ( down 200hp ) is not impossible to win as one of my good customers ( Bobby Dauderman ) won a Super race last year in his 604, but track conditions were right and he started up front and had luck go his way.