New Topic---Plug Wires

[brad hibbard]

There are some companies out there with wild claims to making power with their plug wires

without me commenting on this I would like to see if anyone's engine builder has supported these claims
NOT the people building or selling the wires or even an ignition guy but engine builder.

the subject has plenty of room for discussion

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[billetbirdcage]

I have seen a loss of power from running to large a plug gap. I have yet to see a gain from opening the gap though.

Going from .040 to .060 on a all MSD 6AL system lost 40HP, I thought maybe my dyno had a weak coil or box so replaced both and still down over 40HP. Re-gapped down to .040 and power came right back, so a weak plug wire with borderline to large a plug gap I could see a wire maybe making more power but mostly due to the gap being too large for the ignition system.

Note: You couldn't hear a miss on the dyno, so if you wasn't looking at A/F ratios or EGT's you wouldn't suspect anything just down on power above torque peak. Basically if in car you would never know just feel like the engine was weak.

[fastford]

we have done some testing with wires about 8 yrs ago , the cheaper 7 mil wires made just as much power as the more expensive 8 mil wires , only thing , i think the 8,s will last and perform longer with out breaking down , JMO.....

[brad hibbard]

billetbirdcage ---I am anxious to compare notes with you
fastford---as always --your input is valued---I like what you lay out here with 7 and 8 mil wires---these wire guys are all about ohms and they really fight for the lowest ohms---FYI we are talking wire sets that are $400
don't beat up the messenger ---Race-1 doesn't use $400 wire sets but they are out there and making big claims

trying to see if anyone other than the wire builders are seeing any gain

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[billetbirdcage]

I'm talking general engines, test was not done on a crate just to be clear.


But then again why would anyone buy an open engine when I can make that crate make 800HP? you know, get 15HP from that carb, 10HP from that spacer, 18HP from that fuel, 12HP from that fan, 16HP from those headers, 8HP from that evac system, 6HP from that oil, etc.

Surely my crate has to be close to 900HP after I bought all that stuff? People are gullible and want to believe they are getting beat because the other guy has more HP. 90% of the people that can't win could have a 550HP crate and still get outran. The engine is the least important thing in crate racing unless you racing on hammer down track, IMO

Most places don't have that big an issue with cheated engines but everyone thinks it's happening so. . . . Unfortunately a lot of people think it's very common. I know some places like UMP crates have an issue because they won't tech and everyone knows it.

[brad hibbard]

WOW ---we sure do think alike Mr. Birdcage
on a daily basis --I tell my customers that a new RR tire will benefit them more than 90% of the trinkets that are on the market.
when we choose components for our customers--- first and foremost is dependability ----obviously we have to keep somewhat of an eye on performance and I am guilty as any retailer of getting excited when we do see a gain of any sort but in reality there are very few things that can be better than a few digits and in most cases we are talking about not robbing as much power rather than adding power

example is water pumps-, power steering pumps, fan blades
none of these have the ability to add power---but there are units that use less power to operate

good comment

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[SRXSRULE]

"example is water pumps-, power steering pumps, fan blades
none of these have the ability to add power---but there are units that use less power to operate"


This is KEY!
I have many hours on a chassis dyno with a 602. There are times we find HP with the exhuast, carb, or ignition.... But we find the most gains with everything in front and behind the engine.
The shroud is just important as the fan, and running no shroud is one of the worst things you can do (if you care about hp). You always need to remember the fan is an air pump, the more efficient you make that combo work the more HP you get to the wheels. I swear by the 17" race-fan, and only run as many blades as needed. thats usually 2 or 3, and in the spring and fall I run 2 blades with 1/2" of the material cut off the blade to reduce the pitch. That little mod is 4hp.
You can find big gains in the transmission. REM polish EVERYTHING, and remove as much rotating weight as possible.

As for plug wires, I use the Blue Streak racing wires. They are only 225.00 bucks instead of 400.00, but still test at 14 ohms per foot like the 400.00 wires.

[brad hibbard]

I am throwing this out there for conversation (because that is what this is about actually) (conversation)

what is the benefit that a wire with 14 ohms per foot will have over a wire with 40 ohms per foot or even 80?

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[SRXSRULE]

"I am throwing this out there for conversation (because that is what this is about actually) (conversation)

what is the benefit that a wire with 14 ohms per foot will have over a wire with 40 ohms per foot or even 80?"

its actually not that simple, low resistance is only one part of it, and probably not the most important one. (but I think you already understand this)
The spark plug is only going to "use" what it "needs". This "need" will change based on plug gap, fuel, ignition timing and cylinder pressure.

The good thing about most of these high dollar, low ohm racing wires is that they are very good wires and last a long time. I easily get 3-4 years out of a set (over 125 nights of racing).

I will also say that Ive never seen a gain from any plug wires we have tested.... and I dont believe the claims that some of these companies are listing.

[brad hibbard]

I reached out to an associate of mine last night that runs a dyno shop in Canada asking if he has specifically tested the magic plug wires for actual power gains

he tells me a story where he lost a dinner bet in an extreme case
he had a high HP pontiac engine (over 700) come in with FACTORY street plug wires--
The engine obviously had high cylinder pressure and heavy fuel curve to be in the 700HP category---
he bet dinner to the owner that a low ohm wire would make substantially more power--
They then performed an apples to apples test with very high ohm wires against very low ohm wires-----there was no gain---he had to buy dinner and eat crow himself

after the story was told we took the discussion up the line a little further and one thing he pointed out to me -------that even with perfect rotor phase in the distributor the spark must jump a minimum of .060" from the rotor to the dist cap terminal-----what is the resistance figure on that???
with that said---- does some added plug wire resistance really make that big of a difference?

just some things that make you say HMMMMMMMM

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[doyle hargraves]

I always wondered if rfi’s were a problem with the really low resistance wires? I recently installed a set of really low resistance wires on a crate car that had been running all season and after hot laps the first night out car wouldn’t start for the heat race. Hurried up and checked things and it turned out the digital msg box had failed????? Coincidence? Who knows. Replaced it and ran rest of the season

[doyle hargraves]

Billet or Brad could one of you guys explain the difference in msd boxes? We have been running the basic 6al box with the dial type rev limiter but a local track we run has announced that the only box legal for next year is the box with the plug in rpm chip. I believe it is 6aln? Was looking at the prices of them and see they are more expensive than the digital box which is not a huge deal but I always though they were old technology compared to the digital box. What gives??

[Jking24]

I reached out to an associate of mine last night that runs a dyno shop in Canada asking if he has specifically tested the magic plug wires for actual power gainshe tells me a story where he lost a dinner bet in an extreme case he had a high HP pontiac engine (over 700) come in with FACTORY street plug wires--The engine obviously had high cylinder pressure and heavy fuel curve to be in the 700HP category---he bet dinner to the owner that a low ohm wire would make substantially more power--They then performed an apples to apples test with very high ohm wires against very low ohm wires-----there was no gain---he had to buy dinner and eat crow himselfafter the story was told we took the discussion up the line a little further and one thing he pointed out to me -------that even with perfect rotor phase in the distributor the spark must jump a minimum of .060" from the rotor to the dist cap terminal-----what is the resistance figure on that??? with that said---- does some added plug wire resistance really make that big of a difference?just some things that make you say HMMMMMMMMBradwww.race-1.com

I have seen very high horse power cars running on stock plug wires with no issues what's so ever. But i have also seen those wires break down and start leaking in a very small amount if time especially on vehicles with closed engine compartments where engine bay temps are much higher than say your average latemodel.

[billetbirdcage]

Billet or Brad could one of you guys explain the difference in msd boxes? We have been running the basic 6al box with the dial type rev limiter but a local track we run has announced that the only box legal for next year is the box with the plug in rpm chip. I believe it is 6aln? Was looking at the prices of them and see they are more expensive than the digital box which is not a huge deal but I always though they were old technology compared to the digital box. What gives??

The AL N box has a clear laminate on the underside of the box so you can see the components/electronics inside the box, this is supposed to deter modifying the box for RPM chip or Traction control. It also has a different end on the wiring for a single large weather pack plug. But for the most part there isn't a difference in the AL vs the ALN.

Edit, I guess I thought they updated the ALN box to digital also as well as pretty much all the boxes, maybe they haven't. . . not sure to be honest.

Obviously you have the older analog boxes vs the digital box, IMO it's mostly an upgrade in tech over years past.

[brad hibbard]

we have been all MSD ignition here forever
in the beginning days of digital 6 and 7 boxes there was quite a bit of issues with the boxes
the problems may have been self inflicted from wiring issues or coil mismatches but the bottom line is if there was a digital box installed and we had any type of issue we knew exactly where to go
keep in mind all that was back several years ago and the digital stuff is still here so what ever was ailing it has been corrected

here at Race-1 we have stayed analog----i was discouraged by the initial problems so we stayed "old school"
I absolutely love the 7AL-2 but we commonly use the 6ALN as well

I don't cringe at the digital stuff anymore but have not transitioned to it either

Brad

https://www.race-1.com