What fuel to use in 604?

[dynoman14]

stockcar5,
What did I post that will cost people a bunch of money???

Maybe the fact that I was charging $1000 bucks a day for chassis dyno time and recently signed a deal for triple that for 3 years with a contract for engine development.

That cost a lot of money, but telling people that they need to jet up for e-85 and how I do it won't hurt a thing if they do it properly.

One thing you are missing big time is the ability of an engine to assimilate the fuel you dump into it. What do you think happens to the intake manifold and runners in the head when you have to dump almost twice the amount of liquid / vapor in there and the volumes do not change???

Why do you think alcohol heads have intake volumes over 325cc, with 8 throttle blades 2 1/2" ???

[stockcar5]

telling people you need 2x more fuel with e85 when in fact you need only 30% more will cost guys money by not only wasting fuel but causing them poor finishes because there motor runs like a turd.

maybe if you actually spent time on a dyno with e85 and e98 like i have you would know this.

maybe thats how you claim to pick up some much power with peoples carbs, make it run like dog poo then retune it to run right and all is happy in the world?? kinda like a jewler marking stuff up 200% and giving you 50% off makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

[50j]

Once again you guys are the ones spouting off mis-information. Most race fuels have more BTU's than you have quoted but who is to argue with 2 of the greatest minds on the internet.

On your e-85 crate carbs what jets do your run or recommend??? And how many #/HR does that burn on the dyno.

It is a well known fact that it take about twice as much alcohol to make the same power as race fuel.

It may not be exactly 2:1 but close enough in my book to be when the A/F ratio is about 1/2 on the dyno what does that mean since you are such an expert at watching the gauges on the dyno???

As far as the fuel chemistry goes I am well aware of the differences between Methanol and Ethanol as I spent 12 years of my life working in a Bio-Chemistry and Alternative fuels lab that I built myself when I was 20. I was whisked off to Germany for a couple years to continue research there for Daimler-Benz at the Biologische Anstalt Helgoland. After having all the fun I could have there and taking advantage of all the assets I could on the nude beaches and country club swimming pools. I decided to come back to the wonderful USA as I was offerred a wack job running QC for Kraft Foods, stayed a couple years there and got bored, bolted to Domino's Pizza and made crazy bonuses 25 times my salary, cause they were opening 50-100 stores a month. I got a bonus 1 month of $243,000. That only lasted a couple months until they changed the bonus structure and cut them by a factor of 10.

So when I say 1/2 it is roughly 1/2 if it is 54% or 58% that is pretty close to half.

What jets do you run in the E-85 carbs you build ???

The last Braswell 850 Late Model alcohol carb I took in had 138 jets in it and made 821 on the dirt SB-2. The same Dirt SB-2 made 847 on C-16 and has 85 jets in it. The area of the jet is about 2.5 times bigger in the ALKY carb and the # / hr on the fuel flow meter was approx 420 on gas and 810 on methanol.

Using BLP jets in both carbs the number is the gauge size so I think the alcohol jet is actually more than twice the area of the gas jet.

You will find the burn rate and fuel consumption of ethanol is very close to the same as methanol even though it has one extra carbon chain results are pretty close. There used to be an IHRA Alcohol funny car out of Canada that was Champ for many year sponsored by Ethanal. I know the numbers from there and they are pretty close to the methanol numbers other cars used to run. There are several reasons why EtOH is better but I am sure you experts already know so never mind.

Have either one of you armchair rocket scientists ever even built an alcohol engine??? Or did you just look at one on google and cipher all them magic numbers out.

What do you think it takes to convert fuel BTU's into HP???

The jet size of the methanol carb is irrelevant. That's methanol, not E-85 which is ETHANOL and GAS. BSFC means brake specific fuel consumption, and shows the rate of fuel consumption divided by the power produced. If you learn to watch this number, you'll find that it's a little bit higher with oxygenated fuel, and a little bit higher than that with E-85 but not near what you're claiming. E-100 is closer, Methanol is there.. I'm not even going to tell you the numbers because next week you'll be repeating them and claiming that you discovered it when you were head of the Dept. of Energy, before you went to work delivering pizzas. Armchair? No. I've been using it for over a decade. I'm not going to continue sparring with you, because I feel sorry for you. Joking aside, you need some help and I hope you get it.

[jason29a]

Can anyone field this question? Why does GM only recomend using unleaded fuel in these engines? Because Renegade 98 is leaded.

PS... Ive never work for Dominos but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one time.

[Mike Croley]

Can anyone field this question? Why does GM only recomend using unleaded fuel in these engines? Because Renegade 98 is leaded.

PS... Ive never work for Dominos but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one time.

Be happy to . The crate motor idea was sold to racing on the premise that it would save a lot of money , both in engine costs and in fuel costs . GM doesn't say not to use race gas , they RECOMMEND that you use 92/93 pump gas thereby making the crate motor less expensive to run . Most crate motor racers use racing gasoline . It isn't mandatory that you do , but it's going to be difficult to win races against the guys that do use race gas . The Renegade Race Fuel is very carefully designed to make power and torque in crate engines .
Keep in mind that ALL pump gas specs change from spring to summer and from fall to winter . It's to keep stock street engines performing well in all temps and humidity . That means that the gasoline content stays the same , but the ethanol content changes . And that means the octane changes . Pump gas is not a consistant race fuel .

[cheese28]

Dynoman have you ever tested base X04 racing fuel?

[dynoman14]

Cheese,
I was talking to Sunoco last week to get a couple samples of new X04 fuel sent out to dyno.

Shorty was not there so did not get that done. I would have to go to SGA and pick some up and pay premium for it. It costs more than CHP and is supposed to be real good but I am not sure $14G good.

I have a new customer in SGA and will be doing some fuel testing for his engines in the next month so I'll let you know how it runs in a PM as I will be doing a fuel test on probably 10 new fuels that have not really been mentioned on here.

As far as running oxygenated fuel you can add 1 gallon of e-85 with 19g regular race gas and have 4-5% Ogygenate. I am not sure that many of the oxygenated are much better than that combination as the additive packages needed to make power have been cut back in the last 5 years.

I have run 260gt+ for an engine customer and once I got the carb dialed in it was in the same range as CHP. I spoke to another crate builder in VA and he is using it as his baseline because it is pretty cheap and runs good.

I am in the process of changing over a couple of my house engines to 260gt+ as a couple customers in Illinois don't have easy access to VP's crate stuff and it is over $12G my cost now. I think the 260gt+ is about $8-9.

The one thing I like about it is it has a real nice boil curve and the burn curve accelerates real nice with the way I build my distributor timing curves and the fuel curve of my carbs. I run a much fatter fuel curve with more retarded timing than most and 260 likes that a lot.

[denrocker]

Klotz oxy100

Has anyone ran or Dynoed this fuel? We are a klotz dealer and we are getting ready to start running this fuel. Any help?

[Mike Croley]

The following is a direct copy from the Information & Recommendation sheet that we send out with every 604 crate engine that we rebuild. (You can view the entire I & R sheet on our facebook page in the "notes" section. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000435266960)

We recommend the following fuels for the 604 crate engine:
Regular race gas (non oxygenated): Renegade 98 - or any equivalent race gas that does not exceed 105 octane.

Oxygenated race gas (for maximum power): Renegade RatMan Crate 108sr - VP Crate Horse Power (The Renegade Rat Man Crate 108 produces the same power as the VP CHP fuel. Both of these fuels produce more power than any other oxygenated race gas we have tested. However both the Rat Man Crate 108 and the VP CHP require some carb modifications in order to run properly. (We use the Renegade RatMan 108sr in our own house car.) NOTE: On January 1st 2012, RatMan 108sr will be called RatMan Elite)
Renegade racing fuel can be purchased directly from Ford’s Fuel Service, INC. They will ship product anywhere in the US. Contact Tim Tyner at 1-800-615-5981 or (843)-756-3918. You can also find them at www.mrracefuel.com

In addition, we recommend using ONLY race gas. Regular pump gas is too unpredictable as far as ethanol content. Since the Federal Government has allowed oil companies to cut their fuel with up to 10% ethanol, we have seen serious performance issues with engines running regular pump gas, as well as some engine failures (i.e. burned pistons). Blending pump gas with race gas will also result in unpredictable mixtures, and NEVER recommend attempting this.

Steve gives some excellent information above . Renegade Racing Fuels are available nationwide .
In Florida call ,
Mike Croley
Daytona Beach , FL.
386-341-4308