Truth about Crate Engine HP

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  • FASTRAKPR
    Senior Member
    • May 2007
    • 4924

    #1

    Truth about Crate Engine HP

    Finally we need to know the truth about HP on crate engines and here it is. After 9 years of dealing with them we have learned a thing or two and will gladly share the truth. Tired if seeing my teams and others being scammed by engine people. We have seen thousands of these things so hopefully you heed this advice.

    A new motor is a good or even better than rebuilt. Hey its the truth. Several years ago everything in the world was, you have to have a new rebuilt motor or you can't win. They are 20HP better. THAT HAS NEVER BEEN THE CASE. YOU WERE SOLD A BILL OF GOODS.

    Have to take a brand new motor straight to the rebuilder and have it blue printed. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Someone lied to you plain and simple. In soooooo many cases we have seen where the rebuilt engine was worse, not better. THERE YOU GO. The guys that normally run up front, always sell their GM sealed engines after 30 days of racing because so many think they have something you don't. WRONG! Do they take your money and go buy a rebuilt engine? NO. They go buy one straight from GM. A NEW ONE.

    Blueprinted lifters, blueprinted springs, etc, etc. There IS NO SUCH THING!!!!!!! ITS all marketing folks. You cannot blueprint either and be legal. They can match either in the way of pressure but if your engine builder doesn't do that for you anyway, find another one. Hes simply taking advantage of you. ANY engine builder that would not do that as a service for you, does not deserve your business.

    Can you pick up 5 HP there, 5 HP here? Maybe, maybe not. 10 HP has never won a race versus a good handling car. 1 lb of air in the right place will more than make up 10 HP on a crate car.

    Think about it this way,. Look through a dirt racing magazine. This will give you 4 10's, that will give you 3 10's etc, etc. Add them all up and you would be running Eldora in 10 seconds. Its just marketing guys. Black Magic marketing for the most part. DON'T BE FOOLED.

    If you have $12,000 in an engine. You either got taken or its illegal. Pretty simple.

    Engine builders are no different than ever before for the most part. They helped be the reason we needed crate engine racing to begin with. 5 more HP, $10,000 more dollars. That brought us to crate racing. Now the crate engine rebuilders, authorized or not, are starting the same thing. Only you as race teams don't need to by into it this time. ANY ENGINE W 20 MORE HP IS WRONG. PERIOD! QUIT WASTING YOUR MONEY. I' not saying not to rebuild your engines, but these people getting brand new ones so called blue printed, go by yourself a new 4 wheeler w that money. You will get much more bang for your buck if you do.

    Some are even going so far as to replace genuine GM parts with aftermarket parts and some series are even allowing that, WHY? Well its always sold as saving the race team money. HAVE YOUR REBUILDS GONE DOWN IN PRICE? Probably not. We don't change parts in our engines and why? BECAUSE ITS SUPPOSED TO BE A GM CRATE ENGINE CLASS/SERIES. If its aftermarket parts then its a SPEC MOTOR SERIES isn't it? If your engine has 60 lbs or more of oil pressure its probably illegal. It comes to a FASTRAK event and guess what? Now you are mad at FASTRAK. HMMM< I wonder why? Either you want to run a GM Crate ENGINE or you want to run a SPEC ENGINE. Thats really not rocket science.

    We track our engines (rebuilds) from serial number to owner to what was done and its all posted on our site. WHY? How else do you do it RIGHT? If you don't track seals, how do you know where they are? If you don't have engine builders under contract, why would they do everything legal? What incentive do they have? We have one full time person that does nothing but track engine seals. WHY? How else do you really do it? Its in a REAL attempt to keep things straight.

    Oh yes, some will say I am full of crap and Im just trying to sell new engines or whatever. First off no one pays me to sell new engines. Secondly its the truth. I hope and pray that for once, you can actually realize a promoter is trying to help you by standing up and having the guts to say something rather than encourage this continued pattern. NO, I will not answer this post. I am too busy to stay on 4m, but please feel free to write me ay my email listed below. Ask EGO on here and others that really know me. You may not like me. You may not like what I have to say, but its ALWAYS the truth like it or not. I'm not smart enough to remember a lie and don't have time to waste telling you one either. I just tired of seeing people being taken advantage of.

    Please feel free to email me sl@fastrakracing.com


    R Stan Lester
    FASTRAK Racing Series
    sl@fastrakracing.com
    Last edited by FASTRAKPR; 07-25-2012, 11:05 AM.
  • Egoracing
    Senior Member
    • May 2007
    • 4852

    #2
    Stan, you are correct on all but one thing, the right setup is worth more then 10HP as we won A LOT of races even giving up 300+hp to SB2 motors with our crate. Can that be done everywhere, NO WAY, BUT it can be done at some tracks. I would bet a crate could easily lap a super at Winder Barrow when we raceed there and it was 100 degrees and DRY!

    Comment

    • brad hibbard
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2007
      • 974

      #3
      Stan is correct

      Stan is correct in his thinking and current statements.
      this was not always true but the new engines are very consistant.

      we have always heard of generation 2 and 3 even 4 and 5 THERE IS NO SUCH THING
      these engines have always been built to the same specifications BUT---different foundries and suppliers have been used throughout the years making things somewhat inconsistant and different in appearance.----minor specifications have been changed but nothing that equates to useable power.

      the 2010 and up engines have been very consistant and reliable----
      an older engine that fell on the low side of tollerances may have been down a small amount of power---in most cases still not enough to change the result of a race

      we have found the 2010 and up engines to be near the performance side of the tollerances from factory and the parity amongst them is within a number or two.

      We have numerous top competitors that are very successful with new engines

      Max Blair recently installed one of our prepared engines and won the first time out and I believe 2 of the next 3 shows----

      Will Thomas also recently installed a new engine and also won the first time out at a 5/8 mile track where one would think HP would make a difference----Thomas also has continued his success with this engine with wins and top 5 finishes

      Chad Ruhlman also installed a new engine from us with top spot success immediatly along with continued success

      OK those are a few recent FASTRAK competitors that have purchased new engines
      how about some other series?

      Micky Trosclair has been a constant winner in the NeSmith series with a new GM engine
      actually he was recently protested because no one believed that it was legal
      the engine was completely legal and while we were puting it back together we sent him another new engine and he has remained successful with it as well

      Evan Fink has at least 10 wins on his new engine with many top 5's to go with it
      Evan competes in UMP also open steel block and just about any where someone will let him race.

      All of the above engines and many more have been through the Race-1 compiled check list and proper break in but none have had the seals removed

      we offer our recomendations for new engine prep and break in to any one

      don't get me wrong this is not an advertisement for Race-1 but simply some back up information from Stan Lester's statement.

      New engines do need to be preped and broke in properly and as always maximizing the bolt on compatability is worth power

      any competant rebuilder should be able to help you with this

      Brad Hibbard
      Race-1 offers competitive pricing on Chevrolet Performance 602, 604 & 525 sealed circle track racing engines. Race-1 specializes in the GM CTC engines and we offer a wide variety of services specific to the 602 & 604 crate engines. Your source for Stealth Racing Carburetors! Learn from Brad's expertise in teaching, too!

      Comment

      • zeke23z
        Senior Member
        • May 2009
        • 271

        #4
        I have a 604 that was built in 2006 still runnin strong.Has atleast 150 races since i bought it used 4 years ago.I will be buying a new one this fall and i hope its just as good!
        www.nanooklodge.com

        Comment

        • pinto21
          Member
          • Nov 2011
          • 67

          #5
          brad so what u are saying is that u will sell me a new out of the crate motor nothing done to it for 5400 bucks an i will have the same thing as willam thomas has i never have bought into the whole deal that i have to pay 2500 to 3500 more dollars to get 5- 10 hp thats half a new motor or half the money i could race on this year this is how it should be out of the crate put ure pullys on and drop it in a go race not to worry am i getting beat on motor no its set up an driver i am fixing to buy a new motor or a good used one and im going to have fun

          Comment

          • brad hibbard
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2007
            • 974

            #6
            Originally posted by pinto21 View Post
            brad so what u are saying is that u will sell me a new out of the crate motor nothing done to it for 5400 bucks an i will have the same thing as willam thomas has i never have bought into the whole deal that i have to pay 2500 to 3500 more dollars to get 5- 10 hp thats half a new motor or half the money i could race on this year this is how it should be out of the crate put ure pullys on and drop it in a go race not to worry am i getting beat on motor no its set up an driver i am fixing to buy a new motor or a good used one and im going to have fun
            pinto,
            you misunderstood me a little,
            here is how it breaks down
            new engine---$5090

            complete engine prep--this includes maximizing your valve train to the high side of the GM Specs---also adjusting the valves and making sure that everything outside of the engine seals is properly tightened and adjusted----Race 1 charges $400 for this but we will supply anyone with our check list and recommendations at no charge (you can do it yourself)

            next is proper break in
            we charge $500 for this and it includes Joe Gibbs break in oil and wix filter
            there are ways of doing a similar break in at the race track ----so again you can do it yourself
            but keep in mind that proper break in is critical

            we charged Will Thomas and every other cutomer named here and many more $5090 plus $400 for prep and $500 for break in ---which totals $5990 but all of our procedures can be done by anyone ----they are completely outside of the seals.

            Brad

            Comment

            • pinto21
              Member
              • Nov 2011
              • 67

              #7
              thanks for being honest i really belive that is the way this needs to be an these carbs are another prob 1500 for a carb is crazy i mean thats 2 sets of tires but any way u dont have any good used motors do ya brad an where are u located at

              Comment

              • jedclampit
                Senior Member
                • Mar 2008
                • 613

                #8
                You're the tech inspector for Fastrack correct?
                And an engine dealer too?





                Originally posted by brad hibbard View Post
                pinto,
                you misunderstood me a little,
                here is how it breaks down
                new engine---$5090

                complete engine prep--this includes maximizing your valve train to the high side of the GM Specs---also adjusting the valves and making sure that everything outside of the engine seals is properly tightened and adjusted----Race 1 charges $400 for this but we will supply anyone with our check list and recommendations at no charge (you can do it yourself)

                next is proper break in
                we charge $500 for this and it includes Joe Gibbs break in oil and wix filter
                there are ways of doing a similar break in at the race track ----so again you can do it yourself
                but keep in mind that proper break in is critical

                we charged Will Thomas and every other cutomer named here and many more $5090 plus $400 for prep and $500 for break in ---which totals $5990 but all of our procedures can be done by anyone ----they are completely outside of the seals.

                Brad

                Comment

                • brad hibbard
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2007
                  • 974

                  #9
                  Jed,
                  I know what you are insinuating and definetly understand your skeptacism.

                  just so you know how it works:

                  neither myself or a Race 1 employee has ever done anything other than observe during a tear down of one of our engines whether it be a rebuilt or a new GM prepared by us.

                  it has always been done by another autorized rebuilder and in some cases a private engine shop qualified for such work

                  In normal post race inspection when inspection is done without teardown:
                  If 1 of our engines (again either rebuilt or GM prepared) is within the techable cars we will ask the next lowest finishing car that has no connection to Race 1 what they would like to tech.

                  they are permitted to pick a couple of items from a list of nearly 40 different operations that do not require teardown or if they have something else that they want looked at we will do that.---------the team choosing the tech operations and ANYONE else wishing to witness the actual procedures being performed are invited to stay and watch

                  GM crate engine rules are very black and white and we will explain any dimension that is not understood.

                  the bonding and contracts that engine builders are under should also give you some peace of mind that we stay on the correct side of the line.

                  the skeptacism will always be there and we do understand it but hopefully we have put some systems into place to maintain the integrity of the program.

                  Brad

                  Comment

                  • FF21
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2007
                    • 273

                    #10
                    Originally posted by pinto21 View Post
                    thanks for being honest i really belive that is the way this needs to be an these carbs are another prob 1500 for a carb is crazy i mean thats 2 sets of tires but any way u dont have any good used motors do ya brad an where are u located at
                    I agree with this guy.$1000 to $1500 for a crate carb is rediculous.Should put a claim rule or carb rule out there like a box stock except for jet change holley hp or something.

                    Comment

                    • Egoracing
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2007
                      • 4852

                      #11
                      Originally posted by FF21 View Post
                      I agree with this guy.$1000 to $1500 for a crate carb is rediculous.Should put a claim rule or carb rule out there like a box stock except for jet change holley hp or something.
                      I agree on the cost being excessive but rules like that do not work. The teams with money will buy 10-20 carbs and do dyno runs and find the one oddball that is better than the majority and they will run it. Modifications to them can be limited and that would help but still not stop it. We won a bunch of races with a carb from a local builder that was about $700.

                      Comment

                      • pinto21
                        Member
                        • Nov 2011
                        • 67

                        #12
                        i know there prob is no way to really police the carb deal but it sure sucks to know u have to spend that much just to get some power i mean im a working man that has to pay for racing out of my pocket and its not good when u hear crate cars that sound like limted cars

                        Comment

                        • Egoracing
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2007
                          • 4852

                          #13
                          Spending money on shocks is a given but they can move up with you to a limited or super so ti is a mute point, the carb is going to be for this motor only so that makes it hurt more. You can still be competitive on a crate car with a good carb out of the box but it is not common to find a good one in the box!

                          Comment

                          • 50j
                            Senior Member
                            • Jun 2007
                            • 1047

                            #14
                            That's right. By the time you buy a couple of them with problems out of the box you could have bought a good one and saved your time.

                            Comment

                            • jedclampit
                              Senior Member
                              • Mar 2008
                              • 613

                              #15
                              Most racers are VERY skeptical when they Perceive a conflict of interests.....Just seems like a unethical situation to be in.

                              I bet you have skin like elephant leather...or thicker! lol

                              Comment

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