Where are we headed?

[TRocket8]

the problem is they would let them in the engine like the crates of today, no one techs them for the most part (on the local level),i like supers because its run what you brung and the engine over powers the car (it takes alot to hook these up, which to me is a challenge) with crates there is not so much of a challenge on set up, and yes I've owned both and have driven both
if it was my decision, i would get rid of all the crates and limiteds, ill bet that over half would go back to supers (alot of them are spending plenty of money), then you could add the crate purses to to supers, there are plenty of lower classes to run if its a cost issue, hell know guys that spend 30,000 on a street stocks, if they have it they will spend it
late models should be late models and thats it, drop all the different classes, crates were a great idea but it has gotten out of hand
if you want my opinion, its all the different dam tires in the super world that drives me nuts, no need for all the different tires, soft, med, hard, and be done with it

You are ok with just cutting out half the late models?

[grt74]

You are ok with just cutting out half the late models?

all im saying is make the late models one class, not 3-4, trust me, alot will go to super (there buying new cars to run crates today), and no you don't need a 30-40 thousand dollar engine,15-20 will get you in, a 525 will cost about 15-17 by the time you get it in the car(depending on the accessories) im just trying to throw out ideas here,no matter which lates you run, its going to cost money to run them
purses can be better if there not split up between 2 classes ( better purses= better car counts, on the local level and with out the local level, supers will be gone at some point),
we have to fix the local level if lates are going to survive and if it goes to all crates, well im out at that point
ill find some other form of racing at that point, its going to take a little better purses on the local level, not a ton better but a little better, say 1500-1600 to win, and if the track is running both classes, they can and should combine the purses and just run supers, you will see the counts go up, it may take a little bit of time but it will grow
again just my opinion

[MaverickSprints]

all im saying is make the late models one class, not 3-4, trust me, alot will go to super (there buying new cars to run crates today), and no you don't need a 30-40 thousand dollar engine,15-20 will get you in, a 525 will cost about 15-17 by the time you get it in the car(depending on the accessories) im just trying to throw out ideas here,no matter which lates you run, its going to cost money to run them
purses can be better if there not split up between 2 classes ( better purses= better car counts, on the local level and with out the local level, supers will be gone at some point),
we have to fix the local level if lates are going to survive and if it goes to all crates, well im out at that point
ill find some other form of racing at that point, its going to take a little better purses on the local level, not a ton better but a little better, say 1500-1600 to win, and if the track is running both classes, they can and should combine the purses and just run supers, you will see the counts go up, it may take a little bit of time but it will grow
again just my opinion

Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner! You nailed it, the class is far too diluted and crates are killing interest for the fans because they are DULL and Boring, period. Some joker insinuated you had to spend $100k to run a super locally, that's BS. You could run a 2-4 year old car and a used engine for less than half that and spend less than these cratetards that $40k just on a new car. Now if your gonna run nationally and follow a tour, sure you want all new, but not a local weekly show. I blame the Fastrak guy for finishing off weekly supers by offering purses better to crates than they'd pay a super to get people to switch over to his club. No matter how you slice it crates are BORING, a snoozer and that's not good for attracting or keeping a fan base. If you wanna make dirt track into club racing promote crates, if you actually want fans to watch and support it, go Super.

[MLR19]

"No matter how you slice it crates are BORING, a snoozer and that's not good for attracting or keeping a fan base. "

So when a crate wins a super race is it still boring? LOL
Most of the people who preach against crates, do so because they cant win in the crate class, and don't have any excuses left , such as they can't afford the big motor like the rich guys. And if they do run crates & get beat, its because someone is cheating.
Crates in our area put on a very good show, engines get tech'd every week, and have kept a bunch of people involved in racing who wouldn't be if Open Motors was the only choice.
It makes a lot more sense to spend $6000 on an engine to race for $800 to win then it does to spend $40,000 on an engine to race for $1200 to win.

[Racer63]

"No matter how you slice it crates are BORING, a snoozer and that's not good for attracting or keeping a fan base. "

So when a crate wins a super race is it still boring? LOL
Most of the people who preach against crates, do so because they cant win in the crate class, and don't have any excuses left , such as they can't afford the big motor like the rich guys. And if they do run crates & get beat, its because someone is cheating.
Crates in our area put on a very good show, engines get tech'd every week, and have kept a bunch of people involved in racing who wouldn't be if Open Motors was the only choice.
It makes a lot more sense to spend $6000 on an engine to race for $800 to win then it does to spend $40,000 on an engine to race for $1200 to win.

Well said but your beating your head against the wall trying to tell a few of these guys that...

[Matt49]

MLR19 is exactly right. And the reason that the racing is so good is because we don't have a dumbed down rule package in our crate division. No shock rule, a two-compound tire rule, no left year shock and spring in front rule...it's a full blown late model setup with a crate engine. There isn't a lot of junk in this class. Pretty much everybody has good stuff. The sure way to kill the crate late model is to put rules in that make it unappealing to late model guys. If we started piling on silly rules, I would likely quit racing altogether. I can't afford a competitive open motor and I'm not interested in the UMP modified stuff that much.

[MaverickSprints]

Crates are DULL, I'm sorry but they just are. Underpowered bogging, droning and lack excitement. After lap 1 they usually space out evenly and then drone around the track for 20 laps. You posted this in the Late Model section, so you got a Late Model answer. Having everyone with the same engine eliminates another area that some people take pride in, building and selecting the right parts for best performance. No different than selecting the right shock settings, spring rates and stagger. Whats even worse is this new 602 class, somebody shoot me. Before weekly supers died in my area the team I was with last built its own engines and won pretty regularly locally. I'm not one who thinks I have to have the newest latest and greatest to be competitive, whether its chassis or engine. To me crates is socialized racing, forcing everybody to be the same, no creativity, no individuality. Limited would have been the better way to go, at least no one was forcing you to all run the same make or same cam. Crates are unappealing to late model guys.

[Matt49]

Crates are DULL, I'm sorry but they just are. Underpowered bogging, droning and lack excitement. After lap 1 they usually space out evenly and then drone around the track for 20 laps. You posted this in the Late Model section, so you got a Late Model answer. Having everyone with the same engine eliminates another area that some people take pride in, building and selecting the right parts for best performance. No different than selecting the right shock settings, spring rates and stagger. Whats even worse is this new 602 class, somebody shoot me. Before weekly supers died in my area the team I was with last built its own engines and won pretty regularly locally. I'm not one who thinks I have to have the newest latest and greatest to be competitive, whether its chassis or engine. To me crates is socialized racing, forcing everybody to be the same, no creativity, no individuality. Limited would have been the better way to go, at least no one was forcing you to all run the same make or same cam. Crates are unappealing to late model guys.

There are a ton of guys in our area running crates that raced supers for a long time before switching. How is buying a $40,000 engine that you don't even know how to work on (this is what the majority of guys running supers do) add some level of pride to a class? It doesn't.
And you're right, I posted in the late model section and was hoping people that don't know much about late models (you've consistently demonstrated this) would stay out of it.
You're speaking from your personal experience watching crates at maybe one track likely with a lot of junk cars. That's not the way it is everywhere and it certainly isn't where MLR19 and I race.
Anyway...as I have stated several times...crates are not the "answer" to the question I am asking here so let's get off the "crates are evil" side bar. As MLR19 said, most everybody I see that says that has no idea what is happening in areas where crates haven't been turned into glorified street stocks.

But I think some additional weight added to the spread bore motor cars would be a great place to start.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

There are a ton of guys in our area running crates that raced supers for a long time before switching. How is buying a $40,000 engine that you don't even know how to work on (this is what the majority of guys running supers do) add some level of pride to a class? It doesn't.
And you're right, I posted in the late model section and was hoping people that don't know much about late models (you've consistently demonstrated this) would stay out of it.
You're speaking from your personal experience watching crates at maybe one track likely with a lot of junk cars. That's not the way it is everywhere and it certainly isn't where MLR19 and I race.
Anyway...as I have stated several times...crates are not the "answer" to the question I am asking here so let's get off the "crates are evil" side bar. As MLR19 said, most everybody I see that says that has no idea what is happening in areas where crates haven't been turned into glorified street stocks.

But I think some additional weight added to the spread bore motor cars would be a great place to start.

Spread bore gets 6" spoiler.

[grt74]

There are a ton of guys in our area running crates that raced supers for a long time before switching. How is buying a $40,000 engine that you don't even know how to work on (this is what the majority of guys running supers do) add some level of pride to a class? It doesn't.
And you're right, I posted in the late model section and was hoping people that don't know much about late models (you've consistently demonstrated this) would stay out of it.
You're speaking from your personal experience watching crates at maybe one track likely with a lot of junk cars. That's not the way it is everywhere and it certainly isn't where MLR19 and I race.
Anyway...as I have stated several times...crates are not the "answer" to the question I am asking here so let's get off the "crates are evil" side bar. As MLR19 said, most everybody I see that says that has no idea what is happening in areas where crates haven't been turned into glorified street stocks.

But I think some additional weight added to the spread bore motor cars would be a great place to start.

i just don't understand where 40 thousand dollars comes from, guys need to learn how to do business, a nice used piece can be bought for 20,yes an 11 degree 430 on the 2nd-3rd freshen, and on bull rings and 3/8 they wear the wide bores out, only 2 places i know that need a wide bore, and thats just for qualifying, eldora and knoxville, other than that you can compete anywhere in the country, drivability is still a factor, and the reason i guess that im on crates and limiteds is because there spending some serious money these days, so my question is where is the savings?????
and while not everyone is cheating them up, there are some areas where you better have more than a factory 604 or your not going to run in the top 3, again more money
make one late model class(crate or supers)but i hope supers, and pay a decent purse, if they keep paying 500-600 to win its just not going to last, truth hurts but it is what it is,THE TRUTH

i know alot of tracks are in a tight spot these days but its not the racers job to do the promoting and having a good relationship with the local businesses, sponsors and government
a promotor= a salesman
now go hustle up the people, show there is x amount of people coming and sell the advertising signs
theres several ways to skin a cat, but its still work to skin that cat


i don't know the answer but the definition of insane is, to do the same thing and expect different results

[grt74]

unless you go out and buy all brand new stuff, supers are not as expensive as one may think, there are plenty of nice low race used pieces out there
(alot of guys run 2-4 races on a brand of chassis and if they cant hook it up they sell it for another), engines and cars
just my 2 cents, i agree something needs to be done but to get everyone on the same page and work together, it won't happen, to many egos
rant done, ill leave it alone now
some things just need to change and alot of the older guys cant or don't want to change

[Matt49]

I think the big thing with the supers vs crate comparison is that we aren't comparing apples to apples. And by apples in this case I mean a competitive car capable of winning on a local or regional level.
If you compare apples to apples in that regard with supers vs crates, there is a HUGE cost difference. It's not just a matter of the initial cost of the motor but the maintenance cost (total cost of ownership) of that motor and the additional wear and tear on drive train and tires.
Super late model guys spend 3 times what crate guys do on tires and it's because of the motor. Super late model guys are frequently dropping transmissions and rear ends. Simply doesn't happen with crates nearly as much. And we're not even talking about things like the cost of a dry sump system that is pretty much necessary if you want to hold together 800HP for any period of time.
I'm sorry but this notion that the cost of running a competitive crate is close to the cost of a competitive super is nonsense. I'm pretty close with guys that are competitive in both classes (in different cars obviously) and the cost difference is enormous.
Obviously we are seeing different things in different parts of the country. I think a lot of people would be surprised with the quality of racing there is in the crate late model division here in Indiana. I see videos of races in the south that are exactly what MaverickSprint is describing. No doubt, crates on a big hooked up race track is like watching a go-kart race. But that isn't the recipe everywhere.
Anyway...back on point. I just think we need a class that is late model "cars" with a set of engine rules that is:
1) easy to enforce
2) keeps the smart money up front without keeping the big money out (that's impossible)
3) keeps the fans entertained on tracks where crates are not fun to watch
If we had something like this and a guy could spend 15-20 on a competitive motor, I'd be all in. But there would need to be unified rules so that guys can travel and be "regional".
I'm not saying to get rid of the "open" cars but the number of people that can afford to compete there (even at the regional and local level) is getting fewer and fewer.

[profab00]

I think we already had the answer and let it get away from us. All out super engines weigh 2350 with smaller spoiler and "spec" engine making 650 or so hp with steel block and spec heads weigh 2300 with more spoiler. 20,000 dollar engine versus 40,000 to 52,000. Body is way outta hand but I think we have to start with the 900 pound guerilla in the room.

[fastford]

MLR19 is exactly right. And the reason that the racing is so good is because we don't have a dumbed down rule package in our crate division. No shock rule, a two-compound tire rule, no left year shock and spring in front rule...it's a full blown late model setup with a crate engine. There isn't a lot of junk in this class. Pretty much everybody has good stuff. The sure way to kill the crate late model is to put rules in that make it unappealing to late model guys. If we started piling on silly rules, I would likely quit racing altogether. I can't afford a competitive open motor and I'm not interested in the UMP modified stuff that much.

crates are suppose to be an economical beginners class, where is the economics in what you describe?

[Matt49]

I think we already had the answer and let it get away from us. All out super engines weigh 2350 with smaller spoiler and "spec" engine making 650 or so hp with steel block and spec heads weigh 2300 with more spoiler. 20,000 dollar engine versus 40,000 to 52,000. Body is way outta hand but I think we have to start with the 900 pound guerilla in the room.

Makes some sense. But is 50 pounds enough to close the gap?
I was thinking something like 2500 pounds for spread bore, 2400 for anything standard bore spacing with 18 degree or less heads. 2300 for anything 23 degree heads. Just spit balling here.

I completely agree on the 900 pound guerilla in the room. I just don't understand why so many want to point the finger at things that are a drop in the bucket cost wise compared to the cost of ownership for a 900HP motor. People want to blame aero and shocks but once you get 900+ HP in a car so that you can qualify up front, you have to do something to get that thing stuck when it gets slick. So entered advanced aero and shock packages (they go hand in hand). We could go back to the UMP body rules of 1984 tomorrow and I guarantee there would NOT be a sudden influx of spread bore motors for sale on racing junk.
Whatever it is, it has to be simple to enforce. Tracks and series have enough trouble checking what is going on now.