Rf wheel spacer

[Kromulous]

I have ran as much as 3" of offset, more than std., some cars like it, black front rockets for one.

Anyway its a tool in the box, track gets super slick in the summer, throw it on there and see if you like it.

What has me interested is the LF, if it reduces the jacking effect of counter steering i could see it being beneficial there, but you might have to add back in some spring rate. My knowledge of using it on the LF is it makes a car steer thru the center better.

Anyway seems like adding it to the LF on along with more spring, would really help on super slick to keep the car smoother on entry, no swings tight to loose entering. Anyone ever try it?

[Kromulous]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUDMEd1bMZI

This guy talks about the effects while breaking...

[Matt49]

Mr.Kennedy777,
Sorry but you're incorrect on this one. Wheel rate is not affected by the distance between the wheel and the spring on a double wishbone suspension. Again, NOT taking caber changed into account.
If you had a double wishbone suspension with equal length uppers and lowers (let's say 20 inches) and both at the same static angle, this would yield no dynamic camber change. Then let's say you put a 200 pound spring perpendicular to the ground at 10 inches between the frame and the ball joint on the lower control arm. The wheel rate is going to be 100 pounds. I don't care if the wheel is centered with the ball joint or the wheel is 500 feet away. The wheel rate will be 100 pounds. This is because the upward motion you try to place on the wheel is being pushed in two vectors. One is the top of the spindle pushing in on the upper control arm and the other is the lower control arm pushing up on the spring. If the upper control arm were a spring and not stiff, the distance to the wheel would matter, but it isn't so it doesn't. But don't take my word for it, go mock it up in your shop and test it yourself.

[Matt49]

And before you argue with me on this, pick up the phone and argue with the people at Koni and Hyperco, or the authors of any number of automotive engineering books the explain this clearer than I can.

http://www.truechoicekoniracingservices.com/worksheet.pdf

[fastford]

I guess im a little confused my self , I always considered wheel rate the weight or weight change at the wheel , if you put the car on the scales and move the wheel out 2 inches and nothing else , that wheel weight will lessen , which i assumed was wheel rate , of course we all know what assume does.........

[Matt49]

Static load is not wheel rate. The reason the wheel is lighter at static load is because you've moved it further from the center of gravity of the car.
You can't think of the spindle as a lever which is what confuses people on this. If it were a beam axle, the distance between the wheel and the spring mean everything. But all that matters on a double wishbone is the distance between the lower ball joint and the spring (assuming the spring is on the lower ball joint). All of the "leverage" that the spindle gives you, no matter how long the spindle is or where the wheel is mounted on it, is completely absorbed by the upper ball joint and and upper control arm. The spring only feels the wheel's ability to move the the lower ball joint UP. The wheel's ability to do so will never benefit by being placed further away.

[collateralDamage]

I understand the argument being made, and it's a really fun fact. Maybe there needs to be more clarity on the definition of "wheel rate" and "wheel load".

Unless the laws of physics have changed, there is no way that the upper control arm and the ball joint "absorbed the leverage". That force went somewhere.

We are all concerned with, and hopefully aware of, the load at the contact patch of the tire and how it contacts the track. There's just no way to ignore camber, distance from CG, etc. when it comes to how a wheel spacer affects load on the tire.

[Matt49]

I understand the argument being made, and it's a really fun fact. Maybe there needs to be more clarity on the definition of "wheel rate" and "wheel load".

Unless the laws of physics have changed, there is no way that the upper control arm and the ball joint "absorbed the leverage". That force went somewhere.

We are all concerned with, and hopefully aware of, the load at the contact patch of the tire and how it contacts the track. There's just no way to ignore camber, distance from CG, etc. when it comes to how a wheel spacer affects load on the tire.

Well, brush up on your physics because this is perfectly applied.
The force did go somewhere. It went into the upper control arm which is NOT a spring (at least not an easily measurable one) which is why it doesn't change the wheel rate.
When you push up on the spindle snout, all of that force is NOT going into the spring. Think about it. The only upward force the spring can possibly feel is what is being applied at the lower ball joint. The mechanical advantage being gained by distance between the wheel and the lower ball joint is being applied as force into the upper ball joint and control arm in a vector facing roughly perpendicular to the control arm which is NOT felt by the spring. Just take the upper control arm off and conduct this experiment and tell me what point matters as the spindles moves and the lower control arm doesn't move at all. How can the distance from the wheel to the lower ball joint come into play if you can't even move the lower ball joint WITHOUT the spindle being connected to the upper control arm.
These are the laws of physics and it's pretty tough to argue against them. I guess I'm going to have to mock this up and do a video to prove it.
It's easy to apply beam axle physics to double wishbone suspensions but it is WAY off. Easy, is why so many people do it.

[Matt49]

Wheel load - amount of weight on the tire contact patch
Wheel rate - weight required to move the tire contact patch one inch under compression suspension

[collateralDamage]

Everything you are referring to is concerning wheel rate. When you add a 1" spacer and do nothing else YOU WILL REDUCE WHEEL LOAD. The leverage of the spindle on the upper and the frame doesn't just vanish. Although maybe insignificant it goes into the frame and other wheel loads.

[hunterracing]

Has anyone tried it and felt diffence with or without it

[Matt49]

Everything you are referring to is concerning wheel rate. When you add a 1" spacer and do nothing else YOU WILL REDUCE WHEEL LOAD. The leverage of the spindle on the upper and the frame doesn't just vanish. Although maybe insignificant it goes into the frame and other wheel loads.

Yes, I explained why wheel load decreases when you move the RF wheel out. And why wheel rate does not change. Wheel load and wheel rate are two completely different things.

[collateralDamage]

If you reduce the WHEEL LOAD on the RF by putting on a wheel spacer, you will adjust the WHEEL RATE to maintain the WHEEL LOAD. Whether the WHEEL RATE changes IN THIS CASE or not doesn't matter. It's the change in WHEEL LOAD that matters.

That being said, the interesting fact that Matt49 is talking about, is good to keep in mind when determining HOW to change the WHEEL RATE.

If you do nothing more than bolt a RF wheel spacer on, the reduced wheel load should make the car feel tighter. If you make adjustments to maintain the wheel load you will change the way the front end "feels" to the driver and not necessarily change anything measurable on the stopwatch. Its not something I consider an at-the-track adjustment. You either set the car up to use a wheel spacer and you weld it on, or you leave it off -JMO

[matchbox]

What if my chassis has a option to move whole right front assembly out 1 inch. What will it do?

[Mr.Kennedy777]

And before you argue with me on this, pick up the phone and argue with the people at Koni and Hyperco, or the authors of any number of automotive engineering books the explain this clearer than I can.http://www.truechoicekoniracingservi.../worksheet.pdf

I don’t need to lol! Wheel rate that they talk about in that work sheet is actually ball joint rate, they use it to avoid having to complicate that work sheet to help guys get close enough. Anytime you have anything travelling a radius, extending it out further on that radius, while creating the same degrees of movement, you will experience more motion. If the point of rotation is 1” away from the ball joint, 1 degree change isn’t very big. If you’re 36 feet away, one degree is quite a bit. Even on a beam axle wheel spacing changes wheel rate.