Scale vs smasher

[95shaw]

Static wedge numbers mean very little.

Dynamic numbers are what really matters.

Scale numbers tell you left and rear percentage for setup purposes.

Reading dynamic numbers is impossible on scales, but a spring smasher can give insight.

Then there is aero numbers to add even more confusion.

[Austin34471]

Static wedge numbers mean very little.

Dynamic numbers are what really matters.

Scale numbers tell you left and rear percentage for setup purposes.

Reading dynamic numbers is impossible on scales, but a spring smasher can give insight.

Then there is aero numbers to add even more confusion.

I would argue that both Scale and Smasher (which are by no means "dynamic") numbers are important. There are maybe 2 or 3 people in our entire sport capable of actually closely calculating dynamic wedge, taking into consideration all of the non elastic movement of weight. Even then, what good are those exact numbers really? For our purposes, BOTH static and "smasher dynamic" wedge are important because all we are looking at is the relative difference. If I scale the car out with a 50lbs of "bite" then adjust the C/O nuts to give me 150lbs of bite, I will undeniably have more wedge than I did before (on track). Likewise, if I change from a 200/400 stack with a bumpstop to a 300 lb spring with no stop (RF), I will also also have more wedge. Do these smash numbers or scale numbers closely approximate any numbers that the tires are seeing on the track? No. But the relative difference between the changes are relevant and useful for tuning.

[Jking24]

I would argue that both Scale and Smasher (which are by no means "dynamic") numbers are important. There are maybe 2 or 3 people in our entire sport capable of actually closely calculating dynamic wedge, taking into consideration all of the non elastic movement of weight. Even then, what good are those exact numbers really? For our purposes, BOTH static and "smasher dynamic" wedge are important because all we are looking at is the relative difference. If I scale the car out with a 50lbs of "bite" then adjust the C/O nuts to give me 150lbs of bite, I will undeniably have more wedge than I did before (on track). Likewise, if I change from a 200/400 stack with a bumpstop to a 300 lb spring with no stop (RF), I will also also have more wedge. Do these smash numbers or scale numbers closely approximate any numbers that the tires are seeing on the track? No. But the relative difference between the changes are relevant and useful for tuning.

Your absolutley correct but with all the manipulation of ride heights and use of staged spring combinations. It pretty much makes static scale numbers completely useless for anything other than setting front end geometry, percentages and rear differential lateral location. You can crank all the static lr you want into my car but it will have virtually no effect anywhere but possibly on a slow restart. Our if the driver has to turn right abruptly at the end of the straight away to avoid somthing but we don't really setup for those sorts of things

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Your absolutley correct but with all the manipulation of ride heights and use of staged spring combinations. It pretty much makes static scale numbers completely useless for anything other than setting front end geometry, percentages and rear differential lateral location. You can crank all the static lr you want into my car but it will have virtually no effect anywhere but possibly on a slow restart. Our if the driver has to turn right abruptly at the end of the straight away to avoid somthing but we don't really setup for those sorts of things

It's possible to completely decouple ride height load from load at a point on the track, but that isn't the case for most people, on most locations on their car

[crownman25]

You can do things many diff ways.i prefer just scaling and no trick springs ..i have found that this weeks newest speed trick never works...it depends on where you race the big rr spring soft lr or stacked works great some places it sucks..some tracks like a stiffer lr than rr spring. You just got to have a feel for what the car needs..im not saying stacked bump stop on rear doesnt work or proggressive this is where the smashing comes in... But they aint no way in hell im leavin the shop without knowing what my rear wheel weights are...i have won races 100 heavy rr on a single leaf car and 150 heavy on lr on a 4bar flat and rr heavy some tracks diff conditions..

[crownman25]

One more thing .i think all this stuff has killed super latemodel racing there should be a spring rule no proggresive,stacked,or bumps keep it simple the little guy that has to work 40 hours a week that has no time to test and manipulate setups with bumps and progressive springs.thats why the small time guys have left. Shocks too !

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

One more thing .i think all this stuff has killed super latemodel racing there should be a spring rule no proggresive,stacked,or bumps keep it simple the little guy that has to work 40 hours a week that has no time to test and manipulate setups with bumps and progressive springs.thats why the small time guys have left. Shocks too !

I have a bigger problem with the huge bodies that create massive downforce and won't fit in the trailer anymore.

[dirtdobberrr]

I help several race teams, all the guys that I helped last year ran a class lower than late model. This year, one of my older race acquaintances returned to dirt racing, he had been running asphalt tracks for 5+ years. He bought a 2014 rocket chassis. It is NOT a XR1, but it was supposed to be as up to date as a chassis of this age could be, and the people who were helping the previous owner are very respected in a 3 state region. Once I got up close and personal with the chassis, I was caught off guard by how different the body was. Once we began to discuss the setups that he was given for the chassis, I was really caught off guard. In other words, the stuff that won races 8-10 years ago is absolutely out to lunch now. The modern stuff that is competitive is absolutely just one huge spoiler, and the shocks and spring just keep that huge spoiler constantly up and in the wind.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I help several race teams, all the guys that I helped last year ran a class lower than late model. This year, one of my older race acquaintances returned to dirt racing, he had been running asphalt tracks for 5+ years. He bought a 2014 rocket chassis. It is NOT a XR1, but it was supposed to be as up to date as a chassis of this age could be, and the people who were helping the previous owner are very respected in a 3 state region. Once I got up close and personal with the chassis, I was caught off guard by how different the body was. Once we began to discuss the setups that he was given for the chassis, I was really caught off guard. In other words, the stuff that won races 8-10 years ago is absolutely out to lunch now. The modern stuff that is competitive is absolutely just one huge spoiler, and the shocks and spring just keep that huge spoiler constantly up and in the wind.

Exactly. When I gave up on making the suspension good and turned to aero, the speed came.

[BVogt30]

I agree totally about the aero on these things. There was a reason they outlawed wedge cars years ago and it seems like it’s that’s where they are headed back to. It definitely hasn’t made the racing any better, especially on bigger tracks. Would love to see someone start taking a 2” hole saw to the noses or a minimum height to keep the noses in the air. They are so low now that if you bottom the RF it folds the nose over and your done