Front end

[Jim11h]

With all the engineers in dirt now, how are they designing front end geometry? Is there computer programs to enter info in and it moves the corner to show good and bad? Where's best place to learn the front end better?

[billetbirdcage]

Honestly without data to have suspension travel ranges and where and when this happens on the track, you can't really design changes if you don't know where that is to try and make the car better without trial and error and have a better understanding on why that change may have helped/hurt or where to go from there.

Big side note: This will be controversial but roll centers mean almost nothing.

[billetbirdcage]

Jim as I really didn't answer your question on programs.

You might check out Matt Furman on youtube or instagram to see some high tech stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-A6Vxhguoc

[Jim11h]

That's kinda what was asking. Back in day was stock spindle then came after market and they played with moving pin angle etc but how they getting it now. With that said these cars are designed and tested at track local to builder and yes raced elsewhere to test more but the digital acquisition isn't there on raced tracks. This leads me to think that a good understanding of front end a local guy could gain slight advantage at their track by fine tuning for their surface, banking, etc.

Am I crazy in this thought?

[Jking24]

That's kinda what was asking. Back in day was stock spindle then came after market and they played with moving pin angle etc but how they getting it now. With that said these cars are designed and tested at track local to builder and yes raced elsewhere to test more but the digital acquisition isn't there on raced tracks. This leads me to think that a good understanding of front end a local guy could gain slight advantage at their track by fine tuning for their surface, banking, etc. Am I crazy in this thought?

No it's just like any other corner/ area of the car. Every chassis isn't perfect for all conditions and track configurations. If you race the same place every week their are generally gains to be made. The tough part is qualifying weather or not a change went in the right direction and if it did. Did it help for the reasons you think it did. This is how people work them selves out of the box. My personal opinion is the average guy usually benefits more from scrutinizing his maintenence program and at the track nightly adjustments then searching for speed via changing chassis geometry. I've been in shops of all level racers beginners all the way up to championship winning woo teams and most of the shops I've been in I could find multiple things wrong with their racecar even the fast guys.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

That's kinda what was asking. Back in day was stock spindle then came after market and they played with moving pin angle etc but how they getting it now. With that said these cars are designed and tested at track local to builder and yes raced elsewhere to test more but the digital acquisition isn't there on raced tracks. This leads me to think that a good understanding of front end a local guy could gain slight advantage at their track by fine tuning for their surface, banking, etc.

Am I crazy in this thought?

Yes, you could gain an advantage with some small tweaks, if you understand what you need and how to best get it. The front of these cars are barely changed since the tube chassis was introduced. Little spindle changes and such, camber curve changes, is all that ever really been done. And some of those changes have happened and then been reversed again.

There hasn't been anything truly revolutionary, at least not in sense that it has been put into production. I mean I'm running 15 year old geometry and my front end is no doubt better than an xr1.

[Jking24]

Yes, you could gain an advantage with some small tweaks, if you understand what you need and how to best get it. The front of these cars are barely changed since the tube chassis was introduced. Little spindle changes and such, camber curve changes, is all that ever really been done. And some of those changes have happened and then been reversed again.There hasn't been anything truly revolutionary, at least not in sense that it has been put into production. I mean I'm running 15 year old geometry and my front end is no doubt better than an xr1.

The other thing worth noting is the amount we travel these cars nowadays gets alot of thought but in reality we don't actually travel the suspension during racing anywhere near what we used to.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The other thing worth noting is the amount we travel these cars nowadays gets alot of thought but in reality we don't actually travel the suspension during racing anywhere near what we used to.

That's true. We go far from the heights in the pits, but the peak to trough under racing conditions is indeed less.

[Ltemodel]

Honestly without data to have suspension travel ranges and where and when this happens on the track, you can't really design changes if you don't know where that is to try and make the car better without trial and error and have a better understanding on why that change may have helped/hurt or where to go from there.

Big side note: This will be controversial but roll centers mean almost nothing.

Exactly! I wouldn’t worry as much with roll center as other things on the front end. Lots of speed to be had in front end stuff though. I’d be looking at building my own spindles if I had a car.

[KTMLew]

That's true. We go far from the heights in the pits, but the peak to trough under racing conditions is indeed less.

Modern 4-link cars are essentially big go-karts when on the track. The tire is doing most of the work.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Modern 4-link cars are essentially big go-karts when on the track. The tire is doing most of the work.

Yeah. When aero is there for the taking, suspension takes a back seat. Sadly, that is where we are.

[over4T]

Kind of like in the wedge days. Don't worry about the suspension, just add another 6" of lexan or a few more degrees steeper on the deck. And maybe a couple more inches to the circumference of your right rear.