Question for Engine Builders

[hardracer32]

Is the CT525 the same base parts as the high doller LS motors being built by Mullins and Baldwin? By base parts I mean heads, intake, block, etc. If I bought a CT525, once it gets lapped out and ready for a freshen, couldn't I just take it to one of the builders who has a good LS package and have them upgrade it to a good super engine? I've heard that stock LS crank is good up to 1000HP, and I'm sure the block and heads are also capable of that. Would appreciate some feedback from some of you knowledgeable engine builders on here.

[hardracer32]

P.S.- My whole point would be that it would be cheaper to get back into racing by doing it this way than spending $35k all at once for a good LS Super engine. Pay however much for the CT525 to get started then spend another $10-15k when it's time to get it freshened and get it upgraded to a big cubic inch super engine.

[billetbirdcage]

Far from an LS expert, but for a top LS style engine I doubt they use a single part out of a 525 or stock type LS. Cylinder head casting maybe but you got 8K worth of porting and components to be added to the castings.

One thing I can guarantee it will be more then 10 to 15K to upgrade a 525 to an open LS, least a good one that will hold up

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Mullins is an LS7. Pretty sure the 525 is LS 3 rectangular port heads. You could get the 525 up to 700ish HP for your proposed budget, I would think.

[Jking24]

The 1000 hp stuff is all drag racing and they don't live at that level very long for most guys. You can get away with alot more in drag racing because of the short amount of time it spends under full load. The tune up has to be pretty spot on for it to live. Also non of the current ls based super stuff is anywhere near 35k anymore. But to answer your actual question no non of the stuff in that engine is usable for a good super engine. Most of the big builders are using a dart nex gen block and no other stock or stock type for that matter components. While ls7 based I believe mullins heads are cast specifically for his application. Now that's not to say you can't make a 525 way better that's part of the problem with them already I've heard from decent sources that many of the top running 525's have already been "touched" and they refer to them as 625's.

[hardracer32]

The 1000 hp stuff is all drag racing and they don't live at that level very long for most guys. You can get away with alot more in drag racing because of the short amount of time it spends under full load. The tune up has to be pretty spot on for it to live. Also non of the current ls based super stuff is anywhere near 35k anymore. But to answer your actual question no non of the stuff in that engine is usable for a good super engine. Most of the big builders are using a dart nex gen block and no other stock or stock type for that matter components. While ls7 based I believe mullins heads are cast specifically for his application. Now that's not to say you can't make a 525 way better that's part of the problem with them already I've heard from decent sources that many of the top running 525's have already been "touched" and they refer to them as 625's.

Appreciate the reply. Are these "touched" 525's making it through tech?

[Jking24]

Appreciate the reply. Are these "touched" 525's making it through tech?

That's kinda the problem theirs not alot of tech going on with them. And some run with a rpm role some don't .Alot of tracks are allowing them with limiteds and the only thing they care about is the added weight their supposed to have

[EvelB7]

That's kinda the problem theirs not alot of tech going on with them. And some run with a rpm role some don't .Alot of tracks are allowing them with limiteds and the only thing they care about is the added weight their supposed to have

The south could use a little help with tech, but I do think the 525's winning are probably right. Track conditions help; some really good teams running them so they get the most out of it. They don't tech much at all down here so it is not just the 525's that are the issue. They don't seem to understand the appearance it gives off; again, do not believe the winners have been cheating but hear so much and see so little tech that you can't help but wonder. Easy to take that excuse away with just a little work at the end of the night.

[Jking24]

The south could use a little help with tech, but I do think the 525's winning are probably right. Track conditions help; some really good teams running them so they get the most out of it. They don't tech much at all down here so it is not just the 525's that are the issue. They don't seem to understand the appearance it gives off; again, do not believe the winners have been cheating but hear so much and see so little tech that you can't help but wonder. Easy to take that excuse away with just a little work at the end of the night.

I'm not even suggesting that guys are cheating nessecarily but the rules are vague and the tech is virtually non existent at alot of places. If it's not in print it doesn't exist and if you don't tech what is then it's fair game. I think they are a good thing and i don't believe that theirs a bunch of cheater motors running around but they've got to get the seals dialed in and their needs to be a standard on the boxes (their completely programable) otherwise they'll get out of control like everything else. Remember racers are their own worst enemy if the front runners aren't cheating but every one thinks they are they'll all run to the first guy that'll take their money to give them what they think the others have and this industry already has a very big problem with that especially in the crates

[EvelB7]

I'm not even suggesting that guys are cheating nessecarily but the rules are vague and the tech is virtually non existent at alot of places. If it's not in print it doesn't exist and if you don't tech what is then it's fair game. I think they are a good thing and i don't believe that theirs a bunch of cheater motors running around but they've got to get the seals dialed in and their needs to be a standard on the boxes (their completely programable) otherwise they'll get out of control like everything else. Remember racers are their own worst enemy if the front runners aren't cheating but every one thinks they are they'll all run to the first guy that'll take their money to give them what they think the others have and this industry already has a very big problem with that especially in the crates

The first time around with the 525's down here (about 8 years ago) they tried programming the boxes at each race, now they let you put the the tune you want. They are tuning all night long, one of the biggest suppliers of the engines walks around with a computer and will put in the tune you choose. Seems they have some momentum around here, one series just went to all 525's (they had mixed rules last year but I believe a 525 won almost all of their races). Another series mixes the limited late models with the 525 and it has been a good mix (I think you know that series as I believe you ran it some). You are correct though, they need to have a solid tech so that the average racer feels he is getting a fair shake.

[Jking24]

Yes i did run with the bandits some the year before last. I think it's the blue ridge outlaws that went to all 525s And that programming is a big point of conflict. Because all the boxes that have been disallowed in woo, lucas and even most reginal and local track rules are just that programmable timing curves. That is a huge advantage. The other year when the vic hill engines were the hot ticket on the national tours if I'm not mistaken that was the edge they had. They were using the timing curves to soften the engine through the night. It can be done mechanicaly but not as easily. In my opinion that is a issue especially when they run against a limited car.

[EvelB7]

Yes, Blue Ridge Outlaws went only 525's allowed. I think they actually will have a decent car count and I do think they will do a good job with tech. Biggest plus for them is they took away grooving/siping the tires, huge win in my book. Bandits were struggling a bit at the end of the year and had the whole 'no tech' fiasco, hopefully they make a few changes and get things going in the right direction as it was a great group of racers that ran their events.

[Jking24]

Yes, Blue Ridge Outlaws went only 525's allowed. I think they actually will have a decent car count and I do think they will do a good job with tech. Biggest plus for them is they took away grooving/siping the tires, huge win in my book. Bandits were struggling a bit at the end of the year and had the whole 'no tech' fiasco, hopefully they make a few changes and get things going in the right direction as it was a great group of racers that ran their events.

I didn't hear about the "no tech" fiasco but I'm a little out of the loop lol. Im a huge fan of no grooving and no siping. I'm my opinion it is the single biggest thing you can do for the smaller teams. I have virtually no shop help and very little track help unfortunately the tire prep program gets the short straw most weeks it's not uncommon for me to work on tires all the way up until hotlaps and in between races and still not have everything where it should be.

[Kromulous]

Are the LS series of Engines a viable alternative now in the Super Late Model arena?

I see Mullins and few others offer them, not sure how many out there are running them.

I seen some bigger Teams selling some Engines, most seem to be 440 or bigger CID and a ROX wide bore base.

[Kromulous]

I didn't hear about the "no tech" fiasco but I'm a little out of the loop lol. Im a huge fan of no grooving and no siping. I'm my opinion it is the single biggest thing you can do for the smaller teams. I have virtually no shop help and very little track help unfortunately the tire prep program gets the short straw most weeks it's not uncommon for me to work on tires all the way up until hotlaps and in between races and still not have everything where it should be.

I fully agree about the tires, and make the compound 40 or harder.

We see the same thing in the Mods, plus the tire softening is prolific.