Thoughts on Stagger 2

[croston71]

Ok, I can see you are headed in the CORRECT direction now if you comply to the use of minimal stagger( stagger is never good+ ASK JIMMY OWENS or Fallon which ever is most easily accessible).
How do you turn with minimal stagger(minimal stagger equates to less wheel spin more forward bite/ check your ass when doing this).
Long straights & tight turns require a square rear end & a bar setup for quick rear steer
/ a short bar set up / maximum angle in lower rear bars.
I also believe spring rates on rear should be equals /always/ or the rr a bit heavier/ I reccommend SWIFT springs.They have a more linear spring rate = more precise tuning.
The added LF caster will load the RR quicker & the added spring rate requires less travel to plant the RR jus remember; THROTTLE THE BITCH!
MORE LATER : OUT OF TIME FOR THE DAY

[hall99]

I agree I run minimal stagger compaired to some. 3-3 1/2" in most situations 4" in more extreme hooked up situations. In my current car I have never had a tight condition on 3" on stagger.

[Ghopper]

I also believe spring rates on rear should be equals /always/ or the rr a bit heavier/ I reccommend SWIFT springs.

How do you know if the spring rate is the same across the rear axle? (this is a provocative statement)

The motion ratios are quite different when mounting spring in back on the LR. The LR has a degressive effective spring rate with the tradition motion ratio of a four-bar suspension (movement of the spring mount in relation to wheelcenter displacement). The RR is a linear movement of the spring mount,


Ghopper

[mab475]

He meant statically.

How do you know if the spring rate is the same across the rear axle? (this is a provocative statement)

The motion ratios are quite different when mounting spring in back on the LR. The LR has a degressive effective spring rate with the tradition motion ratio of a four-bar suspension (movement of the spring mount in relation to wheelcenter displacement). The RR is a linear movement of the spring mount,


Ghopper

[croston71]

The statement derives from the Rocket setup book I have & some of the local guys I know always run a softer RR spring. My thought is you are being taught a soft RR will allow more weight transfer when in reality caster controls wieght transfer & what you should be tuning to acheive is a standard amount of grip/ side bite. Tracks rarely ever change anything but surface conditions. Stagger should never be adjusted cause of this varible cause stagger should be determined on track measurments/ configuration/ & how much rear steer is being dialed into the car. I am not a drag race fan but to go fast in a straight line all measurements should be square. I have written in other post on other forums about high cross setups require high camber settings if you wish to maintain throttle , relinqishining throttle = resquaring the rearend & sliding the car into the turns which causes excessive tire wear & a lateral slide all of which I am not in favor. I know guys who kick ass on a 30 lap race but in a 50 to 100 laps will get their asses handed to them every time without question. Stagger on a track such as WVMS before being downsized leads to extremely excessive wheel spin half to 3/4 of the way down he straight. In the past I have seen & heard many racers considered to be very good use wheel spin to turn the car through the turn but I was convinced they are not hooked up so again they are local to regoinal at best. I will say I am curious about Donnie Moran's Runs at Eldora. I figure to run a setup that allows his cars to perform as they appear requires a very high horsepower by means of a extremely high RPM engine configuration. I guestimate MPH derives from RPM which comes from acheiving momentum. I got a thought, you are hooked up when front
wheel RPM,s = rear wheel RPM. At this point you are wheel spin has been eliminated & everything is moving in the shortest line between points. One more thought I believe to acquire a top notch engine such as Donnie Moran or Bloomquist you mus first show a high level of integrity not a high level of beating/ belittleing the competition. Some guys can dream but will never acquire the needed assests to achieve the dream results!!

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Caster imparts a "jacking effect" where the chassis is lifted at the wheel. I wouldn't call that weight transfer.

Weight transfer is what happens when the center of gravity is effected by acclerations in any direction.

[poppy]

So what kind of numbers are you talking about left and right caster?

[Matt49]

How much weight jacking effect is made by caster is also largely dependent on how much scrub radius is designed into the spindle. It's interesting to play around with on the scales even though that is just static.
Many people believe that caster split (more on the right than on the left) is necessary in our cars but I don't think I entirely agree with that. We would like to do some testing this year working on nothing but different caster combinations.

[ALF401]

The statement derives from the Rocket setup book I have & some of the local guys I know always run a softer RR spring. My thought is you are being taught a soft RR will allow more weight transfer when in reality caster controls wieght transfer & what you should be tuning to acheive is a standard amount of grip/ side bite. Tracks rarely ever change anything but surface conditions. Stagger should never be adjusted cause of this varible cause stagger should be determined on track measurments/ configuration/ & how much rear steer is being dialed into the car. I am not a drag race fan but to go fast in a straight line all measurements should be square. I have written in other post on other forums about high cross setups require high camber settings if you wish to maintain throttle , relinqishining throttle = resquaring the rearend & sliding the car into the turns which causes excessive tire wear & a lateral slide all of which I am not in favor. I know guys who kick ass on a 30 lap race but in a 50 to 100 laps will get their asses handed to them every time without question. Stagger on a track such as WVMS before being downsized leads to extremely excessive wheel spin half to 3/4 of the way down he straight. In the past I have seen & heard many racers considered to be very good use wheel spin to turn the car through the turn but I was convinced they are not hooked up so again they are local to regoinal at best. I will say I am curious about Donnie Moran's Runs at Eldora. I figure to run a setup that allows his cars to perform as they appear requires a very high horsepower by means of a extremely high RPM engine configuration. I guestimate MPH derives from RPM which comes from acheiving momentum. I got a thought, you are hooked up when front
wheel RPM,s = rear wheel RPM. At this point you are wheel spin has been eliminated & everything is moving in the shortest line between points. One more thought I believe to acquire a top notch engine such as Donnie Moran or Bloomquist you mus first show a high level of integrity not a high level of beating/ belittleing the competition. Some guys can dream but will never acquire the needed assests to achieve the dream results!!

I know a guy who runs a spool in a pavement car and never runs less than 3" stagger! You can beat the guy, either. Dirt or pavement, stagger makes the car turn. About every oval track i have ever seen, when you get to the corner you will need to turn! Find what works for you and stay with it, you can go up with stagger never adjust down.

[hpmaster]

How much weight jacking effect is made by caster is also largely dependent on how much scrub radius is designed into the spindle. It's interesting to play around with on the scales even though that is just static.
Many people believe that caster split (more on the right than on the left) is necessary in our cars but I don't think I entirely agree with that. We would like to do some testing this year working on nothing but different caster combinations.

I have worked with many different caster settings over the years. I feel the caster split deals more with driver "feel", but is only one factor in steering. So each car's indvidual servo, extra light to what ever and a rack between 3.1 to 4+ along with caster settings of 0 to 6+ are major considerations as is FL wheel set back and right and left side wheel base both static and dynamic as the car transistions in and out of rear steer. A split of 2 1/2 to 3 degrees with left caster no lower than 0 and right not higher than 6 works with most cars, the heavier feel servos up higher in the caster range and the lighter servos lower. As for stagger I stay between 3 and 5 inches on back, with the fronts as close the the same as possiable. Now with all that said if you need more than 5 inches of stagger to get a car to turn you got other issues to fix first. JMHO.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I have worked with many different caster settings over the years. I feel the caster split deals more with driver "feel", but is only one factor in steering. So each car's indvidual servo, extra light to what ever and a rack between 3.1 to 4+ along with caster settings of 0 to 6+ are major considerations as is FL wheel set back and right and left side wheel base both static and dynamic as the car transistions in and out of rear steer. A split of 2 1/2 to 3 degrees with left caster no lower than 0 and right not higher than 6 works with most cars, the heavier feel servos up higher in the caster range and the lighter servos lower. As for stagger I stay between 3 and 5 inches on back, with the fronts as close the the same as possiable. Now with all that said if you need more than 5 inches of stagger to get a car to turn you got other issues to fix first. JMHO.

Don't you mean more caster for lighter feel servos?

[hpmaster]

Don't you mean more caster for lighter feel servos?

Sorry about that you are right, that was backwards but the range is the right. What I am trying to say the balance between "feel" and steering effort is more of a balancing of factors, not a set rule. For the 3/8, 1/3 mile tracks, what I run now, I push this balance in my cars to the point that at slow speeds the car is very "darty" and seems react way too quick at low speeds. BUT when at speed you can almost "think" the car to turn with minimal effort and movement. When I was younger I "armstronged" the car more. You still have to be carefull you are not screwing up the balance between feel and effort in steering for you. This all depends on your bump steer, ball joints and front end parts being correct, straight/not bent, a slightly bent lower ball joint, bump in or incorrect toe, can throw this whole discussion out the window.That all gets back to balance of all other factors at both ends of the car. Ok now that I have confused everyone and myself included I will just say caster is a good place to spend a day experimenting after you get the car working pretty well, not before. JMHO

[Ghopper]

The rear tires must have a higher RPM than the front.

That is because they are the drive tires. Maximum longitudinal force would be generated from 10-30% slip depending on the surface and air pressure.

I believe the comment was not to have excessive slip (x2 or more RPM difference between Front and Rear tires)



Ghopper