Shock Tuning Question for the Experts

[hpmaster]

The answer is sometimes yes and sometimes no. Depending on how the shock was built it is going to have a range for the lower speed rates and the higher speed rates. The adjustments are usually only within a few hundred pounds. If your high speed control is within the range needed on your slick setup for a heavy track you can control the wheels in the tack but usually your going to have specific low speed controls you won't be able to adjust out of. Everything is always a give and take. People get mad at me for promoting here but it sounds like you might need more explanation on what the shock does . most cases you will not have enough adjustment or will be valved out to one side or the other. Just because your shock is adjustable doesn't mean it will work in everything. It needs to be taylored to what your car needs. There is no one size fits all. I can help if you'd like more info.

Brian seriously, I mean SERIOUSLY? Please read what you wrote and admit this was the longest non answer in 4M history. I avoid reading most your posts for this reason. Rather than hide your self promotions in volumes of nonsense just start out with your quote "most racers are scum bags", most of us can judge from there.

[Brian Gray]

Your living scumbag proof of that comment. Most doesn't mean all douche wagon.

[RacerX10]

I keep spring changes to an absolute minimum. IMO, you can get away with changing none or 1 spring and stay good from tacky to slick on the same track.

Our cars are very adjustable and there are plenty of ways to keep handling consistent.

Maybe an example ? As driver / crew / sponsor / daddy / husband / etc I'm constantly looking for ways to minimize my work load

[RacerX10]

If your going to drop the coin on new IDA shocks, get with a true shock guy, spend about the same amount of money or a little more and get the info to tune your car with. No sense in spending all that $ and getting limited info.

Agreed. However, I have been running on *literally* 16 year old shocks and I've decided it's time to upgrade if I'm going to be worth a (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word). Going to splurge and buy new tires, too. I've never had a new tire on my car

[RacerX10]

Stiffer LR used to create more drive...the opposite is true today. These are just two examples.

Ack .. I'm running on 20 year old info then. Stiffer LR doesn't tighten up exit / create more drive any more ????

[LM14]

Matt49, I totally agree this is old thinking. I also agree this thinking came from pre "hiked up" days, but I feel it still holds true.

Yes, there are many adjustments to choose from. Yes, shocks have changed drastically and you can do things with shocks you didn't dream of a few years ago. I still believe you can mask spring issues with shock adjustments. You may be able to make it work in most instances but it still isn't right. Maybe that spring change would have made your car even faster than the shock change you are using to mask spring issues.

Once shock technology took off, everyone is shopping for the magic silver bullet shock setup. Who is best, what brand is best, what do I need to buy? You need to buy what you can get serviced, buy from somebody that you can talk to and what is best for driver "A" may not wok for driver "B". Shocks are not the end all of chassis tuning, they are merely a piece of the puzzle.

We, as racers wanting to go faster every time out, tend to rely too heavily on the latest trend and forget why we needed to improve that piece of the puzzle in the first place. As chassis dynamics changed (improved?) we out-ran the ability of the shocks to control movement IN THE TIME WE NEEDED THOSE MOVEMENTS TO HAPPEN. Movement didn't change, interaction of chassis components changed and we needed to move these events to a time they best suited the chassis needs. It's still 4 tires on dirt, we just have a newer way of planting those tires. If the newest technology is really so great, why have we not seen times drastically faster than they were 10-15 years ago. They are faster, usually, but not really that big of a change. Monkey see, monkey do?

That's why I still feel springs need to be changed to match the track/driver/HP/ and shocks need to be used to fine tune.

Now if you are soft enough on the RF to run on bump stops, the shock is totally different. The part that is the same is it still controls the timing of the spring/bump stop event. It's still a part of the tuning puzzle, not a replacement for a proper spring.

JMO,
SPark

[Matt49]

Matt49, I totally agree this is old thinking. I also agree this thinking came from pre "hiked up" days, but I feel it still holds true.

Yes, there are many adjustments to choose from. Yes, shocks have changed drastically and you can do things with shocks you didn't dream of a few years ago. I still believe you can mask spring issues with shock adjustments. You may be able to make it work in most instances but it still isn't right. Maybe that spring change would have made your car even faster than the shock change you are using to mask spring issues.

Once shock technology took off, everyone is shopping for the magic silver bullet shock setup. Who is best, what brand is best, what do I need to buy? You need to buy what you can get serviced, buy from somebody that you can talk to and what is best for driver "A" may not wok for driver "B". Shocks are not the end all of chassis tuning, they are merely a piece of the puzzle.

We, as racers wanting to go faster every time out, tend to rely too heavily on the latest trend and forget why we needed to improve that piece of the puzzle in the first place. As chassis dynamics changed (improved?) we out-ran the ability of the shocks to control movement IN THE TIME WE NEEDED THOSE MOVEMENTS TO HAPPEN. Movement didn't change, interaction of chassis components changed and we needed to move these events to a time they best suited the chassis needs. It's still 4 tires on dirt, we just have a newer way of planting those tires. If the newest technology is really so great, why have we not seen times drastically faster than they were 10-15 years ago. They are faster, usually, but not really that big of a change. Monkey see, monkey do?

That's why I still feel springs need to be changed to match the track/driver/HP/ and shocks need to be used to fine tune.

Now if you are soft enough on the RF to run on bump stops, the shock is totally different. The part that is the same is it still controls the timing of the spring/bump stop event. It's still a part of the tuning puzzle, not a replacement for a proper spring.

JMO,
SPark

I agree with 90% of this. The 10% being the lap times. Shock technology (and today's setups) don't necessarily come through when the track is fast which is when qualifying times and consequently track records are being recorded. But when the track is slick, we're probably running 1 to 2 seconds faster (depending on track size) than we were 30 years ago. The big builders (i.e. technology trend setters) sell cars to the big money teams. The big money teams race for big money on slick tracks. Every builder today is trying to build a car that will turn AND have forward bite in the slickest of conditions. The roll center movements and anti squat are what achieve this and shocks getting the car where it needs to be and holding the car where it needs to be in most cases to make it happen.
Take the guy running up front at any given track and put a set of straight 4 or 5 valved non adjustable shocks on his car and he'll go to the back when the track isn't fast.

Good discussion.

[let-r-eat]

I will render another opinion I have regarding shocks that some will flame away at me for sure.A shock is designed to keep the tire in contact with the racing surface.I find that many compromise this basic principle when they try to control suspension travel with shocks. We see this all the time on rough race tracks.If shocks were all that is needed then they wouldn't even make springs of different rates.

[LM14]

Good point on the slick, Matt. There is a drastic difference in the slick from what we raced 25 years ago.

SPark

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I will render another opinion I have regarding shocks that some will flame away at me for sure.A shock is designed to keep the tire in contact with the racing surface.I find that many compromise this basic principle when they try to control suspension travel with shocks. We see this all the time on rough race tracks.If shocks were all that is needed then they wouldn't even make springs of different rates.

Your shock has a spring in it, if mono tube. Your cars mass, the springs, and dampers all have to work together. Technically, if you change spring rate, dampers need adjusted too.

[RacerX10]

So to go off slightly on a tangent, is everybody running that soft RF spring setup these days ? I've never run under 450 on the RF.

[Matt49]

I will render another opinion I have regarding shocks that some will flame away at me for sure.A shock is designed to keep the tire in contact with the racing surface.I find that many compromise this basic principle when they try to control suspension travel with shocks. We see this all the time on rough race tracks.If shocks were all that is needed then they wouldn't even make springs of different rates.

Definitely. This is where the importance of dampening control at different shaft speeds come into play. The low speed dampening (or lack thereof) is what we are using to control car attitude but we still need to understand the high speed dampening characteristics that help us control contact patch integrity. For example, you want the RF to tie down but not "ratchet" down, if that makes sense.
This can be achieved through proper shimming but quadruple adjustable shocks (rebound and compression in both high and low speed) are coming to DLM racing soon. Integra showed some off at PRI but I don't believe they are available to the public yet.

[Matt49]

Your shock has a spring in it, if mono tube. Your cars mass, the springs, and dampers all have to work together. Technically, if you change spring rate, dampers need adjusted too.

Good points. Wheel rate is what's important, not spring rate. The same spring on 5 different cars will produce 5 different wheel rates which is why the shock/spring package that works on a Rocket won't necessarily work on a Masters, Barry Wright, etc.

[let-r-eat]

I agree with Matt49 and Masterbuilt_Racer, LM14 and others here. You can get yourself all jumbled up with the use of both speed and position sensitive adjustments especially when you're using a shim stack to control high speed and a bleed for low speed adjustment. You still have to be able to determine the threshold for the breakover of the low and high speeds.This stuff isn't plug n play.

[let-r-eat]

To elaborate further the rebound sensitivity is where the action is. The spring only stores so much energy and no matter the rebound combination used if the spring doesn't have enough energy stored to create the speed allowable by the damper then you are just losing the ability to keep the contact patch planted. I like these type threads. We could dive into the details or proprietary information but that isn't really necessary because we are discussing principles. Think about what the stacked right front is placing on the demands of the shock? This is why it is so difficult for people to get it to work properly, along with utilizing the spring outside of its design limits. I'll quit there.