shock question

[mattworx]

shocks

So Penske, do you see an application for some form of FRIC in dirt late model racing. One that would help keep the car angled (as opposed to flat like in F1) to improve aero grip?
If you don't answer, we're all going to assume that this is what you have under Bloomer's car :-)
Just kidding...but seriously, I'm interested in your opinion on FRIC in dirt racing.

ill say one thing read between the lines there are some really smart people on this board .there not telling everything but if you read all and think about what they are saying and use your own smarts the help they give is invaluable. when doing anything in life learn from others let them make the mistakes so you don't have to . I now you are kidding but don't try to be a smart butt to some people ,if they take it the wrong way the help ends and that sucks for us all.
im am a real beginner on shocks and these are great questions on this topic and thank all with there answers !

[Matt49]

I'm not trying to be a smart butt (maybe you missed the smiley face). It's called making a joke.
I'm asking a legitimate question about FRIC (or some form of it) as I myself have been studying how it is used in F1 and have been thinking about how it could be adapted to work in dirt racing. In F1, it's all about controlling car attitude (keeping it flat). More in more in dirt racing, we are trying to control car attitude to keep it angled, making what I call a "dynamic" wedge car. My feeling is that some variation of FRIC could be utilized to improve our ability to do this. I'm asking the Penske guy because I'm 99.9% certain that he understands FRIC better than most people on here. But I'm almost sorry I brought it up now. My feeling is that there are 3 kinds of people regarding this topic:
1) People who know a lot about it and are keeping quiet until they figure how to make it work and market it
2) People who have no idea what it is much less how it works
3) People who have questions about it
I fall into the last category.
For what it's worth, if anybody ever does figure out how to make it work, it will likely be quickly made illegal by the sanctioning bodies.

[PushinTheLimit]

I just did some reading up on FRIC... very interesting stuff. I'm sure the guys at Penske have got some form of this figured out for DLM's, but seems as it would be difficult given that we aren't trying to just keep the ride heights flat like on F1 cars, but have that "dynamic wedge" and keep it there and still provide optimal traction.

Just wondering if something more could be done to aid in this by using a LR front shock.

[hucktyson]

Any system that ties the 4 corners together hydraulically or ties any corners together in such a manner needs to be banned immediately. There is no need to allow anytime of that complexity to be used in our sport .

[Matt49]

I don't disagree, huck. I'm wondering if the 4-way adjustable shocks are going to make it long.

[PushinTheLimit]

Yeah, I agree it shouldn't have a place in DLM's. There was an article with interviews with Randy Weaver and Mike Marlar discussing about how engineering is playing a bigger role in our racing than it ever has and continues to evolve over time. To the point that it's driving the little guys out of the sport.

Technically there has always been engineering in this sport and many others (anybody who tests new stuff and building to rules and finding ways to get an edge), but the high tech, high dollar stuff doesn't need to come down to this level... it'll only hurt the sport I think.

[PenskeShocks]

This is an interesting topic. They FRIC systems used in F1 are highly developed and only work because there are data systems and engineers to run these systems. One thing i can tell you is that NO company is going to invest the type of money needed to test, let alone race a system like this. It would be a huge advantage, but also be very costly and the chance you would see the return on the investment is very unlikely. I am not saying its all about making sales, but there has to be a limit, you have to be able to sell what you develop. If we come up with something trick and can only sell it to 10 cars, its not good. If we can make something that majority of the DLM world can buy, now that is something to develop. So would there be an advantage to running a system like this, yes, is it currently being done? 100% honesty, not by us. Again, we have to weigh cost vs. reward, we know what these systems cost, there is no place for it in any current race series, let alone DLM.With that said, there are things we learn from using these systems in F1, that translate down to other forms of racing. This will never stop, no matter what, you will always have someone, whether it be NASCAR, Sports Car, where ever that know someone that race in DLM, and they will translate technologies. You can't stop it. It is funny sometimes when sanctioning bodies try to stop development, in the end that is all that racing is. Development, if your not continuously developing, your probably going to fall behind. Its not fair to try and penalize the teams, or drivers, that constantly develop. In the end, no matter what, these teams and drivers won't stop developing, why? because this is why we race, to get faster, no matter what...Sorry for the rant..

[PenskeShocks]

Engineering is going to continue to be more valuable year after year. In the end these engineers only help quantify and document changes and help piece the puzzle together of why "we" were fast one night and not the next. There is no substitute for a great wheel man with great feedback. If you can learn what your driver likes to feel and what adjustments he is sensitive to, you have a big advantage over the competition. I was speaking with someone today about set-ups and what the trick thing is. Best analogy i have is its like losing weight. Everyone thinks, or wants, there to be a magic pill out there that you can take and bam, you start losing weight. But when you end up going to a personal trainer, or expert in this field, the only answer is, hard work, watch what you eat, regular exercise. Racing is the same thing, believe me, if there was a magic pill or "set-up", we would be selling it for a lot of money In the end it comes down to development, test, develop, test, take notes, and continually learn and apply as much as you can. Please stop by our booth at PRI 1625 or continue to post questions, thats why we are hear. The more we can teach you about suspensions in general, the more you see how important shocks can be, and you can judge for yourselves what is best for your car.

[mab475]

Penskeshocks,
Is it possible to use the older style cannister shocks with the new setups and piston designs?

[hucktyson]

The more we need engineers in this sport the less racers we will have. It's a slippery slope , you have the older guys retiring and if the cost to race becomes too high new guys won't even bother starting. The problem is there is only soo much fans are willing to pay to watch a race and only soo many people who even want to watch. If we get to the point where a guy can have a season like
Bloomquist and lannigan did this year and still lose 200k the sport can't sustain itself. If it becomes like NASCAR where the driver just holds the pedal and turns the wheel while the engineers do everything else people will lose interest real quick .

[PenskeShocks]

mab475, you can have older shocks update with new internals. our internal dimensions have remained the same over the years so you can always update the older products.

[mab475]

Could you give me a contract number for having this done.

[PenskeShocks]

mab 610-375-6180 ask for Aaron

[JustAddDirt]

I haven seen anyone ask PenskeShocks about the J damper, (Shock Inerter).
Since Penske has production rights to this this product design now.

[Matt49]

I haven seen anyone ask PenskeShocks about the J damper, (Shock Inerter).
Since Penske has production rights to this this product design now.

Inerter is the correct term. J-damper was a "code" term and intentional misnomer to cover up what they were doing. If I'm not mistaken, inerters in F1 are used mostly in conjunction with what is referred to as the heave spring in front which provides a type of anti-dive without all of the unwanted suspension binding. In dirt late models, dive is a good thing these days for multiple reasons.
My understanding is that inerters work best in suspensions with very little travel, certainly something we don't have in late models...unless some type of bell crank system was deployed...but I'm rambling so...

Bottom line is that F1 suspension complexity makes a dirt late model look like a go-kart. F1 suspensions are much more rigid to keep roll, dive, etc. under tight restriction to control the aero profile of the car. And the cars are VERY aero dependent so this is of utmost importance. They are willing to sacrifice large amounts of mechanical grip to gain larger amounts of aero grip. That's a luxury we don't have as much in the late model world.