small 1/4mile oval tips, transitioning from road racing

[rob burgoon]

My local track is Barona Speedway near San Diego, a small 1/4 mile oval. I've an IMCA mod with a 602 in it. I've been fairly successful in sports cars on asphalt road courses (Laguna, Sears, etc), and have read a book about 4 bar rear suspensions, but I'm still having some issues with knowing how the car is supposed to handle.

Has anyone else transitioned from sports car racing? How is the car supposed to feel? Should I be tossing the car in sideways with a "pitch and catch" technique? Should the car want to do the entry on its own without me tossing it in there? Do you guys rely on trail braking to get rotation on entry?

Sorry if the questions are vague, I'm not really sure what question I should be asking.

Would anyone be willing to share how the setup and driving style changes from say your average 3/8 oval to a small semi-banked 1/4 mile track?

[RRR_Products]

My local track is Barona Speedway near San Diego, a small 1/4 mile oval.I've an IMCA mod with a 602 in it. I've been fairly successful in sports cars on asphalt road courses (Laguna, Sears, etc), and have read a book about 4 bar rear suspensions, but I'm still having some issues with knowing how the car is supposed to handle. Has anyone else transitioned from sports car racing? How is the car supposed to feel? Should I be tossing the car in sideways with a "pitch and catch" technique? Should the car want to do the entry on its own without me tossing it in there? Do you guys rely on trail braking to get rotation on entry?Sorry if the questions are vague, I'm not really sure what question I should be asking.Would anyone be willing to share how the setup and driving style changes from say your average 3/8 oval to a small semi-banked 1/4 mile track? p.s. anyone know why all my newlines vanished when I hit submit?

Hey Rob will you be at this track this Saturday? Give me a private message and I'll work with you on this.

[TS3g]

I have no asphalt/road experience, but I will tell you that you drive a dirt car more with your feet than the steering wheel. A properly setup car should naturally want to to start turning off throttle on corner entry. Most people trail brake of some sort to control the pitchiness of the entry, trail brake more to tighten entry, less to let it rotate on its own. And by trail brake, I mean apply the brakes and gas at same time as I seem to recall road racers used trail braking terminology differently.

With a modified, it is paramount to pick up the gas early after corner entry (apply just a little throttle, don't stab it unless the car is super tight and track is heavy) to get the car on the bars. This will lock the car down (stop sliding) and let you rotate through the center while starting to accelerate. Apply only as much throttle as the track will allow at any time, although with a 602 and 4 bar, you should be able to be pretty aggressive.

Track to track setups shouldn't change much if you find a good baseline setup, typically a bar angle/possibly spring change is all. Being new to mods, I would advise having someone hot lap the car for you to make sure it is setup closely, then just concentrate on driving it as much as possible without making a lot of setup changes. You can dial yourself out of the ballpark incredibly easy with these cars, so it would be best to learn to drive it first, then tackle setups later. Welcome to dirt racing, have fun!

[rob burgoon]

Probably not driving tomorrow, still have some welding to do.

Thanks TS3g, sports car folks call any brake/steering overlap trail braking. Good to know it's different.So you pick up the gas midcorner to get on the bars which reduces rotation? Then add as much gas as you can without getting excessive rotation?

I've got some on board video here:http://youtu.be/fAuoYbM-oWI?list=UUC...Llar7QdjNkNbSQ

same race from the stands here:http://youtu.be/DW3e2IRhsko?list=UUC...Llar7QdjNkNbSQ

daytime here:http://youtu.be/2RA710EqdGI?list=UUC...Llar7QdjNkNbSQ

See anything obviously wrong with technique or setup?

[RRR_Products]

Hey Rob we spoke last year during a practice session. I think I gave you my card and we talked about the road course schools I teach at and how to smooth things out on track relating to the road course driving you've done. I believe on the clock you were almost a full second faster and unlike the other sessions no spins! You ever get that lr slider fixed? Anyways keep in touch and I'll be in town Saturday night.

[rob burgoon]

Thanks for the help RRR, but I'm not looking for professional coaching at this time.

[JustAddDirt]

first thing I see/hear, is the car needs more gear.
that will help with corner entry as well. sounds like you are on brakes a good bit.
I know it is a crate motor, but it needs to turn more than 5k rpms.
It sounds like motor is starting to come on power mid straightaway, and then you are off the throttle.

[charcoal01]

I've run baron a few times before so I might be able to help a bit. My home track is cocopah but I raced my pro stock there and had a few 2nds and 3rds. I only ran my mod once because I think the track is too small and they farm it too much for my taste. That's neither here nor there I guess so any ways, what gear are you running and what kind of car and rear suspension? Also, what ratio is your steering? Are you running a 602 or 604 crate?

[save the racers]

Also, what ratio is your steering?

I was wondering this as well. It looks like the car is darty or driver is not used to that quick of steering. Have you tried more toe out?

[rob burgoon]

602, 4.7 rear gear, 4 bar rear, no idea on the steering ratio, driver is used to unpowered rack and pinion on asphalt.There's not a lot of room for my right elbow, so it seems like I end up one handing the wheel with my left when the inputs get big.

[JustAddDirt]

that is a small track.
probably needs to be a 6.00-6.20 rear end gear. (judging by videos)
Check toe out, set it at .5"
Seat time will help getting used to the steering.
I think a rear end gear change will help a lot.

[rob burgoon]

I noticed that the RF spring is only 650. I'm changing to an 850 spring to see if I can get the car to oversteer less in mid and exit. I do have a 6.2 rear gear that I can try, but won't that be way short? The redline on this crate is only 5500rpm. My suspicion is that once I get this car handling well, the speeds will go up and the gear will be much closer.

[JustAddDirt]

I believe the 850 will be way too much RF spring on that small of a track.
It sounds like the car may be a bit tight ( and that gear does not help matters) and you are burping throttle to try to get it to turn. then the car goes loose. car does not know what to do.
On corner entry once you turn car into corner to get the car to stay consistent through corner, it would be best to stay at one point on the throttle, and increase throttle through middle to exit.
If car is too tight (understeer) then you need a tick more stagger or some 4-link adjustments.
If car is loose (oversteer) you may need to take out stagger or some 4-link adjustments.
as for the gearing, the way it sounds on the in car videos the car does not start to hit its power range till mid straightaway, and then you are off the throttle.
You said gear was a 4.70?

[rob burgoon]

Tried the 850, didn't seem to make any difference that I could feel. Tach was hitting about 5,000rpm with bad handling, redline is 5,500rpm.Tried zeroing out the stagger, didn't help.I put the car on scales, and left side is 51%, rear is 54%, bite is -70.How bad is it having a bite of -70?Left side ride height of 5", right side is 7".RF UBJ is 1/2" shorter than LF UBJ.Burned up the RR pretty bad. Think the bite is the problem?

[oldtrackchamp4x]

Left side is a couple percent low, rear should be close to 55.5- 56.5 scaled at end of feature. You say you have 70# rr bite! Should be about 70-90# lr bite with you out of car.I'll bet you had fun with bad handling. JMO