oil pressure dropping to 0psi

[ford396]

Ego: the pan is a custom unit from Moroso. As I type this, it is on its way back to them. They are going to revamp the pickup box. I sure hope it works. Unfortunately, I am now home from the track for at least another week.

[andy16]

something i do just for verification is on my dry sump pressure in port in the front of the block where your vc sprayer lines hook up i have a small 1/8 pipe oil pressure guage to show me what my "pump" pressure is going into the motor i then compare that to my oil pressure guage that is connected to the rear of the block and i know my loss thru the motor. this shows me if i have a pump/line/filter problem or a internal engine problem. also when i start the car from behind the tire i dont have to walk around and look in the cpit.

sounds like you found a possible problem anyway hope it works out. while you got the pan off id pull a main down and a rod cap or two off and see what they look like. id pull #5 main down for sure the one by the rear of block. always the worst on my motors.

[halfast07]

On the older style blocks you would see and variation in the bearings if there was an oiling problem from front to rear. But he has a dart block and it should have a main bearing priority oiling .you will not see the problems with this system..do you have the lifter galley sealed off from the rest off the engine? this can and will hold the oil in the top end of the engine if the returns are not sufficient. I had the same problem a couple years ago. good luck

[ford396]

I pulled the #3 and 4 main caps. Bearings looked like new. I did not pull any rod caps. Maybe I should?? The lifter valley is not sealed off at all. In fact, the Little M is wide open in the valley. I do not believe I have a drain back problem. If I did, I believe I would see oil in the breather can??

Andy 16: I am in fact oiling from the front and reading pressure in the back. My spring oilers are fed from the back of the block. I do not think this would cause any concerns?? I like your idea of another gauge. I suppose it is possible that the front of the motor still had some oil getting to it, but not enough to hold pressure to the other end of the block.

I sure hope the revamp of the pan solves my problem.

On a side note, I have a dipstick installed in the block and have the level set to 4 3/8 from the pain rail. Do you guys think it would be wise to attempt to check the level of oil while the motor is running, thereby; eliminating the possibility that I am not starting with enough oil in the pan????

Thank you guys for all of your input.

[dynoman14]

You would be surprised how much oil cooler lines, coolers, filters etc. take up. The valve cover oilers alone should account for +2qts.

I don't think your pan had a problem at all, you just underestimated how much oil you needed in your system.

7qt pan +1...2qts for cooler and lines, 2qts for filter, 2qts for cover oilers, and an extra 1-2qts for external oil pump. 14qts minimum 16 qts max.

You have to consider the drain back involved in the deal of a running engine that does not have vacuum assist to get the oil back to the pan and into the oil pump again.

Where do you have your external pump located. If it is above the oil pan it is most likely cavitating on the 9-10 qts you are running.

If I was you I would seriously look into a Canton Accusump system as I have run them on every Ford engine that has run an external oil pump as they all have the same problem. They store about 1/2 the oil in drain backs, lifter valley etc. especially on wet sump systems that make some pressure in the engine blowing out of the VC breathers, that pressure will prevent oil from draining back and contribute even more to your problem.

Don't be overly concerned with running too much oil as it is evident by your pressure problems that you have not hit an adequate level yet.

I have not yet found an engine that was hindered by a couple quarts too many but sure enough hurt by a couple quarts not enough. As your dart is priority mains, I would look at the pushrods and pushrod cups in the rockers to see if they are dark from heat / lack of oil. Rods and mains will prolly be fine but other areas down the line may be compromised.

On your chassis dyno test did you ever do 20-30 back to back pulls to confirm the operation of oiling system. I do this on all cars that I run on my ChassisDYno to establish power drop and dynamic friction losses, I am also able to gather data on Inertia gains and losses in the system this way. When I do them it is just like you are racing the car on the track, 2500-7500, 40 times in a row will get you the equivalent of 20laps. I also get a great read on fuel consumption and cooling capacity.

[ford396]

Dyno:

You bring up some very valid points. I am wondering if my fill level is too low. Should I attempt to check it while running?

The pump is on the left side of the bell housing w/a an16 line.

Unfortunately, while on the chassis dyno, we only performed power pulls. No on track simulation.

I talked with Moroso again today. They are reworking the pickup in the pan. I will then try again. It may be a simple issue of not enough oil in the pan as you mention. If so, I will feel the fool.

[ford396]

Just an update. I installed the revamped pan from Moroso and no more oil pressure problems. The pan is the only thing that I changed, so I guess I know where the problem lied. No for some chassis tuning

[dynoman14]

Make sure you make about 10 consecutive acceeration pulls from about 3500-7500 and watch the oil pressure during those runs. Even though the car is not sitting on an angle like banking it will give you some real good information on how the drain back effects are working.

What did they do to the pick-up and location in the pan?

[ford396]

They took the 1'' pipe and reduced it to 3/4", then installed it through the side of a 1 1/2" x 2" box. The pipe no longer terminates at the side of the box, but rather has the end cut at an angle and protrudes to3/8" from the floor of the pan and forms the pickup. The box is suspended from the top and is open all the way around to allow oil entry. It is aprox. 1/4" from the floor of the pan and serves more as a baffle than a pickup now. It seems to be working fine and holding solid pressure on the track.

[Egoracing]

Even though the car is not sitting on an angle like banking it will give you some real good information on how the drain back effects are working.

If you ever studied oil flow in an engine you would know that the oil would only notice the banking of a track under idle, NEVER under power. The G forces of the cornering keep it in the right side of the pan, NOT even to mention that an engine in a DLM or Mod even on a banked track is almost level for most of the corner with the left side lift and right side compression that cars are running.

[dynoman14]

Thank you so much for that insight I would have never figured that out on my own...

What do you suppose happens when the car is rolling around the track at 20mph for the 5 pace laps before a race or the slow laps that occur under caution.

What do you think happens to the oil when the car decelerates under 2-3g load in a straight line before it goes into the corner???

On a late model with debris screens in all the drain backs it takes almost 2-3 extra quarts to compensate for the additional time it takes for drainback as I did that test about 15 years ago with a home made lexan oil pan.

Just trying to help a fellow racer out with a couple things that worked for me thru the years.

[ford396]

I mean no disrespect to either one of you as I have never met you guys. But, why does everything have to turn into a pissing match between you?

For what it is worth; the car is an asphalt limited late model that does have some hard G-forces in the corner. It does not roll much though due to big bar soft spring setup.

[dynoman14]

Ford,
No dis-respect taken, I don't think I said anything in my posts to you to generate a negative reply from anybody on here.

I was trying to relate to you a similar problem I saw with a couple Ford pavement engines that I was looking after for Jack Cornett. Curtis Gattis out of Arkansas and Tom Hardy from Jefferson, GA.

One was a dry sump and one was a wet sump and they both had similar problems.

The dry sump issue was resolved by sealing the lifter valley and vacuuming out the oil with a pick-up stage.

The wet-sump problem was solved by constructing conical screens with the points upward for drain back. With 1 1/2" of vertical cone base about the diameter of a 50c piece there was no back up of oil flow.

Happy to hear you resolved the problem with the pick-up and pan fix.