No new wars

[ss12]

Trump LOSES IT as Senate VOTES AGAINST HIM on WAR

[lurker]

BREAKING: Congress BLOCKS Trump’s Ability to ATTACK Venezuela

Moved from the wrong thread.

[lurker]

Now Ty, you have legal training.

I thought he told me he was in the studio music business or something in that field.

[ss12]

Let's talk about Trump, oil, and the costs in Venezuela not adding up....

[Tyy7777]

So, the president owns shares in several oil companies. Really? Which ones? How much? Tell us.

I would hazard a guess that many of us through 401K plans, public employee pension plans, and other bundled investment vehicles have "shares" in oil companies. I guess the thing that is lost on many is that an international court ruled many years ago that these companies assets were stolen by Hugo Chavez and Venezuela. Chavez attempted a coup in 1992 and was put in jail. In a later presidential race the candidate that was running, and later won, made an agreement to release him. This was because that candidate had to muster support from fractional parties that leaned socialist.

So when Chavez won in 1998 he kicked out the companies that had agreements with Venezuela and he seized their assets. This was deemed an illegal act by an international court. Chavez went around his own country seizing private property assets from farmers and businesses and while the oil prices were good from 2000-2010 he had some time to play with the ill gotten gains. But socialism ultimately failed for them and shortages ensued as they put themselves more into the orbit of Russia, China, Cuba, and even Iran.

What Venezuela did by seizing projects owned by foreign companies like Exxon/Mobil, Conoco/Phillips and others was not a policy disagreement, it was expropriation. Contracts were broken. Assets were taken. Compensation that had been agreed upon was not paid. That is not controversial, that is historical fact.

Those companies didn't go complain to social media, they went to court. They won. The rulings were: final, binding and enforceable. Venezuela lost and was ordered to pay, but they refused to comply. Now Ty, you have legal training. When a party: loses in court, owes a judgment, refuses to pay...the law allows creditors to seize assets belonging to the debtor. Countries do not get a free pass on this. The law allows those assets to be seized beyond their borders.

Why oil and oil tankers are in this conversation. Venezuela's primary commercial asset is oil. Oil moves in tankers. Those tankers carry state owned Venezuelan oil. They are commercial property. They can be lawfully seized per the court rulings. This is no different than seizing: a bank account, an airplane, a shipment of other types of goods. The Venezuelan unpaid judgment is around $35 billion, per the international court ruling. Enforcement is necessary as a last resort option when years of non-payment exist and continuing administrations and governments (from Chavez to Maduro) have neglected to satisfy the legal court ruling. International election observers also make the claim that Maduro did not even win his election in 2024.

This is not about Trump's oil portfolio. This is about: Venezuela seized assets of US (and other) companies. Venezuela lost in international court. Venezuela refused to pay and they owe around $35 billion. This is not piracy, it is lawful enforcement. This is accounting, not simply aggression, and it is backed up by the international court.

That is mostly true but we are talking about a little bit more than seizing tankers.

[ss12]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOwY3cEDp8A

[Morgs153]

So as referenced above, there is no real problem in finding justification for an operation against the assets of Venezuela, since they obtained those assets illegally. There is no problem in the justification for going after Maduro. There was (as pointed out in some posts above) bi-partisan support for ending the Maduro regime. The US military demonstrated superiority in a very kinetic operation and may have actually sent a message to China in how quickly they wiped the field of the air defense assets supplied by China and Russia.

I do agree that the problem going forward will be in what we get from a government of Venezuela as far as legal cooperation goes. Their failure of an experiment in socialism goes back over 26 years. They have people within their power structure who have been a part of that system since its inception. That's not just a flip of the switch. I'm not a fan of nation building. Although this isn't Afghanistan, where we were trying to help them build a bridge to the seventh century, it is still a very problematic situation. You're talking about a full generation of people who have only known Chavez and Maduro. You're talking about a nation where the narco types run a large part of the country. That's a mess.

Is it enough to gather the replevin and then have them democratically elect a leader and walk away and let them continue to figure it out? That is the we'll see moment. I do see the value of making sure that our near region, our hemisphere, is more in line with our national interests.

[Morgs153]

So, the president owns shares in several oil companies. Really? Which ones? How much? Tell us.

I would hazard a guess that many of us through 401K plans, public employee pension plans, and other bundled investment vehicles have "shares" in oil companies. I guess the thing that is lost on many is that an international court ruled many years ago that these companies assets were stolen by Hugo Chavez and Venezuela. Chavez attempted a coup in 1992 and was put in jail. In a later presidential race the candidate that was running, and later won, made an agreement to release him. This was because that candidate had to muster support from fractional parties that leaned socialist.

So when Chavez won in 1998 he kicked out the companies that had agreements with Venezuela and he seized their assets. This was deemed an illegal act by an international court. Chavez went around his own country seizing private property assets from farmers and businesses and while the oil prices were good from 2000-2010 he had some time to play with the ill gotten gains. But socialism ultimately failed for them and shortages ensued as they put themselves more into the orbit of Russia, China, Cuba, and even Iran.

What Venezuela did by seizing projects owned by foreign companies like Exxon/Mobil, Conoco/Phillips and others was not a policy disagreement, it was expropriation. Contracts were broken. Assets were taken. Compensation that had been agreed upon was not paid. That is not controversial, that is historical fact.

Those companies didn't go complain to social media, they went to court. They won. The rulings were: final, binding and enforceable. Venezuela lost and was ordered to pay, but they refused to comply. Now Ty, you have legal training. When a party: loses in court, owes a judgment, refuses to pay...the law allows creditors to seize assets belonging to the debtor. Countries do not get a free pass on this. The law allows those assets to be seized beyond their borders.

Why oil and oil tankers are in this conversation. Venezuela's primary commercial asset is oil. Oil moves in tankers. Those tankers carry state owned Venezuelan oil. They are commercial property. They can be lawfully seized per the court rulings. This is no different than seizing: a bank account, an airplane, a shipment of other types of goods. The Venezuelan unpaid judgment is around $35 billion, per the international court ruling. Enforcement is necessary as a last resort option when years of non-payment exist and continuing administrations and governments (from Chavez to Maduro) have neglected to satisfy the legal court ruling. International election observers also make the claim that Maduro did not even win his election in 2024.

This is not about Trump's oil portfolio. This is about: Venezuela seized assets of US (and other) companies. Venezuela lost in international court. Venezuela refused to pay and they owe around $35 billion. This is not piracy, it is lawful enforcement. This is accounting, not simply aggression, and it is backed up by the international court.

[Tyy7777]

I don't know that I'd walk too far down the road of UN approval. I can't recall if UN approval was obtained over Panama and Noriega which is a very similar circumstance to this operation. I don't think it was bothered with for Greneda as well. The UN isn't called "un" for nothing. Getting the blessings of a bunch of third world low rent nations who often work against our interests doesn't interest me. The UN is a joke in most regards and has been for a long time.

Venezuela was a strong and thriving economy before the days of Chavez and then Maduro. Assisting and fostering them back to that would be a nice outcome and would be good for regional and national security.

The thing that concerns me in the wake of this operation is seeing Linda Graham running around with a grin you can't dynamite off his face, a war b0ner and spouting off about Cuba being next. Can't someone just put Senator Graham in a room with his play set of little green toy soldiers and have that be enough for him?

Our president owns shares in several oil companies. Let's not get it twisted why he's done this. Sure it'd be good to see Venezuela return to being the Miami of South America but that's going to be a very intensive thing to do.

The issue with this is it now sets a precedent for someone like China to do whatever the duck they like. They can do a 'regime change' in a similarly placed western ally and hold Venezuela up as grounds for doing so.

[Tyy7777]

Still going with that rhetoric?

Why was the DoJ actively retracting Trump's name from the files? Are you still going with ignoring that?

[Morgs153]

I don't know that I'd walk too far down the road of UN approval. I can't recall if UN approval was obtained over Panama and Noriega which is a very similar circumstance to this operation. I don't think it was bothered with for Greneda as well. The UN isn't called "un" for nothing. Getting the blessings of a bunch of third world low rent nations who often work against our interests doesn't interest me. The UN is a joke in most regards and has been for a long time.

Venezuela was a strong and thriving economy before the days of Chavez and then Maduro. Assisting and fostering them back to that would be a nice outcome and would be good for regional and national security.

The thing that concerns me in the wake of this operation is seeing Linda Graham running around with a grin you can't dynamite off his face, a war b0ner and spouting off about Cuba being next. Can't someone just put Senator Graham in a room with his play set of little green toy soldiers and have that be enough for him?

[ss12]

Thanks Morgs, the wife and I have been traveling and have arrived at our destination for the rest of winter. Life is a beach!

[lurker]

It's clear Trump is doing it for one big reason. It starts with "o". Hopefully that is not exploited.

It has to do with more than just oil.

Why Trump’s Capture of Maduro IS “America First” - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49ed1Oqprjs

[Morgs153]

Welcome back ss12.

[ss12]

Part 2: Why US Oil Won't Go To Venezuela