A Cure For Capitakism

[Clayton_Wetter]

Bubstr, understanding the FED and the bankster is way over Clayton's head. He can only understand what the right wing media tells him.

Sorry you see it that way. You experts need to go fix them both. lol I just don't see where those are the biggest fish to fry.

[Bubstr]

Ok this is my take on the video. Although I do agree with Mr Wolf's description of the terms Capitalism and Socialism, I do not agree with his opinion that capitalism is on it's death bed. Does it need tweaks here and there, certainly. For one we regulated and deregulated things so many times the lines have become fuzzy. The core idea of capitalism still works and is as healthy as ever. Mr. Wolf talks about workers making a product at a fixed or agreed upon wage that in the end is worth more than they were paid. That is true, but what he leaves out is the risk, materials, machinery, and regular overhead of the business. The workers did not contribute to the start up of that company. The owners or stock holders took that risk on. If the workers would like to put up all of that risk then they should be rewarded. In order to grow that business and keep those workers in a job there needs to be profit over the top of what the product costs to make. Some workers are completely happy with this arrangement and enjoy the fact that they do not take on that risk or responsibility. The idea of stability allows them time to spend with the family or hobbies and pay the bills as well as afford luxury items. Then you have the workers who see that profit statement by the company and feel they deserve more. Now by all means if they can negotiate more then more power to them, but in the end they agreed to the terms. They have no skin in the game as far as initial investment. Stockholders usually do. I feel these folks are the ones that should reap the benefits of the overall profit. Something that is often overlooked is most big corporations pay out stock as bonuses. That makes the workers stockholders as well. So in these cases they are also benefiting from the overall profits.

Enough about that. On to the socialism side. He paints a very nice picture of communities coming together to coop production. That is a great idea with the exception being someone or some group will still be leading the way. And in that case someone will always make more or get more than the others. Isn't this essentially what Capitalism is? I like co-op idea for one reason. It gives initiative to motivate. The biggest problem with those who complain about capitalism is they don't want to risk what it takes to start a big business. Co-op's could be their answer. How do you implement this? I have no clue. There are certainly hurdles to overcome and some people will not work well with others. If they can get past this hurdle I like it. If they are suggesting forceful take over of business like the GM takeover then I am totally against it. The reason why is outside interference. It sets an unfair advantage to one company when the gov essentially strips away the stockholders rights to give to the workers. Those stockholders had an investment in the business. The workers had jobs, and there is a big difference. At what point do we keep the government from taking over all American owned companies and turn them over to the workers?

Anyway those are my opinions on this.

Thanks for the well thought out input. It's refreshing. The few disagreements I have are,
1 risk, Employees do have risk. When they sell their labor to a business, they tie their boat to that ship and to some degree become dependent on the sea worthiness of that business. Sure they can jump ship and find another business, with the set backs attached, but the business can try again also. Example, as a yong man, I was recruited by McDonald Douglas. I didn't take that job due to racing and kicked myself in the fanny for 20 years. If I had taken that job, I would have been left sitting out in the unemployment line in my 40s and wasted the last 25 years of my working career with a limited skill set and too old to be desirable employee. Is that not risk? About all I can offer the young guys, is don't sell yourself too cheaply and be careful to whom your sell.

You mention GM. Look at all the unemployed left out in the job market at an older uncompetitive age. They had risk and lost by hitching their wagon to the wrong train. I could say the same thing about employees of John Deere, Case IH, CAT and Maytag to name some around here.

On the other side of the coin, owners and stockholders operate on the premiss that big risks equal big rewards. If you choose to gamble for a living, should you be rewarded by the capitalist system and get a tax cut on income to 15% when some of the employees pay 38%? I have been hit with the old capital gains tax. If you asked me at the time If it was fair, I would have said I don't think it should be taxed any more than any income, but let me find more deals like that and I'll pay it. Hell, I'd take 10 of them a day.

Next point. Are union or government take overs any worse than hostile take overs done by corporations like Romney's Bain financials? It's a free market or not? I see places like HyVee foods doing very well after employee take overs. I see Co Ops doing very well and still operate as a capitalist entity, not a communist.

I do believe in capitalism and socialism. I believe both need to be regulated to keep a balance that is good for the worker and the employer. one should not be able to leach the other out of existence.

That brings us to the biggest leach and the one I started this thread about. The Federal reserve and fractional reserve banking. They have not only taken the countries money, they have taken the countries power. This is the biggest fish to fry. If you ever worried about New World Order, worry about the FED. They may change their name to NWO and make you believe it is your world, but the goal is not money, they have or can get more than they can ever use, It is about power. The power that Genghis Kan, Alexander the great, or Hitler could not get by force, they will get threw your pocket book.

[15jr]

Bubstr-

My pleasure and thanks for noticing. I feel like more gets done if an actual discussion takes place.

On to your points. My idea of the risk involved is different. You are correct, the employee's do have a risk that the company may be run poorly and have to seek new employment. Although true, chances are they are not out anything other than finding a new employer. The lost no investment in cash or materials. Your example from your younger days is a good story to prove your point, but in fairness it's a what if kinda deal. You never know what could have happened after the fact. I understand your point about never selling yourself to cheaply, but I also believe it pays more in the long run to show how good of a worker you are in order to advance your position. I love hearing stories of a janitor ending up running a large company because of hard work and dedication. Maybe that's just me. If you stand out in a good way your not likely to be at the bottom long!

As far as GM goes, There were a lot more than just Gm employees left looking for jobs at that time. A whole bunch of people tied their wagon to the wrong post. Honestly that was such once in a generation deal no one was safe. Those employees should have been in much better shape than those that had no pension, severance, etc. The only way to truly protect oneself from issues like these are to open your own business and take the risk these big companys you named did. Otherwise again it's a mutual agreement.

Every business is a gamble. That gamble is made by yourself or your investors. I am all for someone taking the risk with their own money. I am not for the government using mine and yours to risk it on companies they know little about. It has been well reported that several companies we were forced to invest in went bankrupt, losing everything it was loaned by us. Although I understand the agenda behind it, I feel it's best left to those that like to gamble with their money.

HyVee, just the kind of organic Production Co-op I am all for. This was not a forced government takeover, but a company decision to have it's employees take ownership. I bet those employees were very hard working dedicated employees knowing someday this would be their's. They didn't take it they earned it. This is the kind of socialism I could get behind. This looked nothing like the GM takeover.

Not much I disagree with you about on the fed. This is the largest power grab we will ever witness in our times. And we foolishly let it happen. That's what we get for bickering over petty things like Gay marriage, Guns, Socialized medicine.

[mudslinger47]

You two wanna get a room....

[15jr]

lol Mud. I have a room already and the wife doesn't like anyone else in there.

[LITE-INN]

lol Mud. I have a room already and the wife doesn't like anyone else in there.

they kinda get that way

[15jr]

Yes sir they sure do.

[kidrock]

lol Mud. I have a room already and the wife doesn't like anyone else in there.

Mud, gets jealous from time to time lol. Sorry Mud I just couldn't resist lol.

[LITE-INN]

clayton and blackie needs to get a room

[Bubstr]

Mud, gets jealous from time to time lol. Sorry Mud I just couldn't resist lol.

Mud, just can't grasp that people can disagree and not be disagreeable.

[t.nie]

The biggest problem with some people on here is you're either Tea Party or you're a wacko. The problem with that idea is it makes 80% of people wackos in your eyes. Not a very mentally healthy way to see the world.

I notice that more than anything. Some people just never actually read what you had to say and figured out you were a middle of the road person. They deemed you a liberal leftie and never figured out their mistake.

Now they just show up as ignored on my screen.

[LITE-INN]

you are who you follow tnie