Kenseth WAY TO GO!!

[CIRF]

Careful A ron, the gimmick lovers will accuse you of, and berate you for, making waaaaay too much sense.

[kidrock]

Just couldn't resist posting this! LOL!

To funny CIRF, I like the look on Brad's face. Lol

[t.nie]

Under any championship system a cut tire can eliminate a guy from being able to win it, whether its with 8 races to go and he doesn't finish high enough in that race to have enough points to win at the end, or its win or go home under the Chase.

Nothing has changed when it comes to bad luck and circumstances costing you the Championship. They just structured it differently.

[A ron]

I agree that a cut tire would have an effect under any system, but the Chase multiplies the consequences of that cut tire depending on when and where the cut tire occurs. If the 24 had cut that tire in any single one of those first 26 races, he would've advanced and probably won. Each race should have an equal part in deciding the championship. Under the current rules, a cut tire at Daytona in February is a minor setback at worst, while a cut tire at Homestead is about 100% chance of losing. If every race counts the same, no matter where you cut the tire, your losses are the same. Look at Kyle Busch. He missed 30% of the season because of injuries at Daytona this year and is still in while Earnhardt Jr. is out because a ONE race got decided by a judgement call. If you want wins to decide the title go off the total # of wins for the YEAR.

[t.nie]

5 races to go, points racing all year, you're tied with the other guy who can win it and you cut a tire and crash, finishing last. You just lost the championship.

2 races to go, you are separated from the other guy who can win it by 5 points. You're both running in the top five. You have a bad pitstop, someone blocks you from exiting when you are ready to exit and you drop 10 spots. You just lost the Championship due to bad luck.

1 race to go, 2 drivers separated by 10 points. One guy finishes top 5, you cut a tire and finish outside the top ten and miss the Championship by one point, because if you would've tied on points you had one more race win than the other dude.

NOTHING is "more magnified" by the Chase. ALWAYS there comes a point in EVERY season under ANY championship system where it is get the result you need or be eliminated, and luck can ALWAYS be a factor.

Rerun all those scenarios and say "oh, but if I had just finished 10th instead of last at the first Bristol race, then at the end of the season I would've beat him by a point and won the Championship."

So, when does one result really decide the season? At the beginning? At the last race? Somewhere in the middle? The Chase is just a championship structure like any other, luck and misfortune at the wrong time can cost you a Championship.

If you lose by a point under the old system, was it the cut tire at Daytona at the beginning of the season that cost you that point? Was it the wreck someone else caused at Martinsville that cost you that point? Was it a bad pitstop at Atlanta that cost you a position and a point?

My point is you can't pick and choose which misfortune or event won or lost a guy a Championship, because even under the old accumulation of points system there are MANY MANY ways a single event at any point in that season can cost you the Championship at the end. And the Chase is no different and it doesn't "magnify" anything.

Sure, 4 guys run for it at one race in Homestead. Ask all the other guys racing at what point did luck eliminate them from being in that 4. Sure, some guy in the 4 cuts a tire at Homestead and loses the championship. You don't think that didn't happen under points accumulation too? Of course it did. A cut tire at the worst possible moment can cost you a championship under ANY system.

Ask anyone who lost a championship under the old points accumulation system which race was the most significant toward costing them the Championship. I bet the answer would be "any of them we didn't win, because winning every race no matter what the structure is what its all about and winning races wins Championships."

I can understand how people can think the Chase somehow "magnifies" things, but it doesn't change anything. Racing is always all about winning, and winning brings championships. Losers find ways to make the format the problem. Guys who win don't care.

[A ron]

How is luck not more magnified in the Chase vs a year long points total? Ray Charles should be able to see that. Under the current system a driver could win the first 35 races, go to Homestead and cut a tire, have a spark plug wire fail, shifter break, or a million other things out of the control of the team and lose to a Ryan Newman like last year who runs 15th all year until Homestead. How is the effect of luck not magnified? .................................................. .....When does one result decide a season???: Under the old system say you finish 40th at Daytona and win every other race you would win the title and deservingly so, under the new rules you could win every race from Daytona to Phoenix, finish 40th at Homestead and lose the Championship. .................................................. .................................................. ................................Second, Auto racing is not comparable to other sports. Other sports play against a one team each game on the same field every single game. The teams out of the playoffs don't keep playing. In Auto racing you "play" against every team in the league on a different "field" every week.........................Next I agree that there are many many ways a single point can cost you the Championship, but at least under the old system that single point counted the same no matter what point of the season you were at.

[t.nie]

People can always come up with far fetched scenarios to fit their logic.

The reality is under points racing the second, third, fourth place finishers are always going to have a few different situations during the season at the very least that if you had finished higher, or someone hadn't wrecked you, or you hadn't had that bad pit stop, or the rain didn't come, or the engine didn't blow up, or the shifter didn't break, or the oil wasn't dumped by that other guy, etc., you woulda won it all.

All of which are the equivalent of cutting a tire in one race, Homestead, and losing the Championship. It's ALWAYS one race that loses you the Championship every year. One race decides it each and every year. In one race, the Champion is crowned and everyone else is eliminated.

It just so happens that under the Chase format you know which race it's going to be, and what you have to be in with a chance before the season even starts. But it's no different, one race always decides it, whether it's at the final race of the year, or with 5 races to go.

So the CHASE doesn't "magnify" anything in terms of importance. With 5 to go and you are second and hanging by a thread, you really don't want THAT to be the race where you cut a tire and don't win it.

Same drama, same consequences. Nothing different at all. Just because its Homestead and a final four doesn't magnify the luck factor at all. If you are second with 10 races to go, then bad luck in THAT race eliminates you and the other guy wins it. Nothing is any different. One race, one winner of the Championship. No matter how it's structured.

[t.nie]

And lets take your 35 race wins logic and examine it. B

For the sake of simplicity, lets narrow it to 5 drivers and use a 5-4-3-2-1 scoring system over 10 races.

Lets say all the drivers finish in the same spot for the sake of an example in each race.

Race 1 POINTS ACCUMULATED- 5 4 3 2 1
Race 2 POINTS ACCUMULATED- 10 8 6 4 2
Race 3 POINTS ACCUMULATED- 15 12 9 6 3
Race 4 POINTS ACCUMULATED- 20 16 12 8 4
Race 5 POINTS ACCUMULATED- 25 20 15 10 5
Race 6 POINTS ACCUMULATED- 30 24 18 12 6
Race 7 POINTS ACCUMULATED- 35 28 21 14 7
Race 8 POINTS ACCUMULATED- 40 32 24 16 8
Race 9 POINTS ACCUMULATED- 45 36 27 18 9
Race 10POINTS ACCUMULATED- 50 40 30 20 10

As you can see, as the season progresses, competitors are eliminated. It becomes mathematically impossible race by race for guys to still win the Championship. So as each race progresses, it narrows down to where only a few racers can win, then maybe only 2 or 3, and then there will come a race when the Champion puts it all out of reach for anyone else to have a chance.

But, for the guys who don't win it, there is ALWAYS that ONE race where a cut tire, broken shifter, blown engine, etc (bad luck) could cost them the whole thing. Always. Whether that's at Homestead under this Chase format, or under the points accumulation system.

All the Chase does is tell you in advance which race/races it's going to be where you don't want to have any bad luck because it will eliminate you from Championship contention.

In the bigger picture though, the Chase itself magnifies nothing in terms of what bad luck can cost you at the wrong time.

[A ron]

I figured a far fetched scenario would help you to understand, but I guess I was wrong. Far fetched or not, I think it's nuts that it's systematically possible. Seriously though, how can that happen where you can outrun 42 people for 35 weeks, run second at Homestead, and lose? Where's the integrity in the system?................................it's not the same consequences. YOU FINISH 40TH AT DAYTONA, YOU CAN STILL WIN. Kyle Busch can not even show up for 11 races, and still have a chance. YOU FINISH 4OTH AT HOMESTEAD, YOU LOSE. How on Earth can you say those races count the same. The first 26 mean nothing. There are exceptions but the same dozen teams will always make it to the top 16 every year. I'm just saying it's ridiculous that the consequences of the same situation differ based on what calendar day they occur on. You wanna be fair, take the best 30 finishes of the year or something like that where each and every race matters, not just the last 10.

[A ron]

You're right the old system did eliminate people every week. However, it didn't give mulligans. Every race counted. There was no point resetting. If the system gives mulligans, they should be able to be used all year. Not just the first 26.

[t.nie]

Under the points accumulation format, every season, for each and every racer, there is a point at which it's

FINISH 40TH AT THIS RACE, YOU LOSE.

All the Chase does is show you in advance which race/races where that is going to happen. During the first 26, those races vary and the group or racers getting mathematically eliminated is there as the season progresses until its down to a final group that will advance. But at some point in the season each racer knows that they will face FINISH 40TH HERE AND YOU LOSE.

Once the Chase starts, the group is 16, and for each of them there will come a single race where its FINISH 40th HERE AND YOU LOSE.

Then its 8, and all of them know that by the time the 4th race comes around, if they don't have a victory to get to the next round, then FINISH 40TH AND YOU LOSE.

Then it's 4, and all 4 know that FINISH 40TH AND YOU LOSE.

It's no different than points accumulation. At some point, each and every racer who will not be crowned Champion knows going into one race that its FINISH 40TH AND YOU LOSE.

It's the same thing. I think it seems different because it doesn't just happen once, as under the old system it only happened once to each driver throughout the season, but all the Chase does is set up multiple rounds of FINISH 40TH AND YOU LOSE.

That's the whole point, something NASCAR can sell multiple times instead of just one race, with for example 3 guys in contention, 2 crash and then the rest of the season is one guy taking victory laps and everyone fighting for second.

Now, on the Mulligan deal, I can see that point. Should they have these rules that allow guys who get "waivers" to race for the Championship anyway? Dunno. But there's a lot of money involved in running a race team, so its in the promoters best interests to allow these guys to run because its their living, their livelihood and getting hurt sometimes happens.

In a perfect world every driver in NASCAR would be there based on talent too, not on how much cash you can bring with you. But its not a perfect world. And maybe multiple win or go home rounds and multiple races where guys have to win, finish x or higher to stay in isn't the best way to decide a Champion.

But all championships are won by process of elimination, and the chase is no different. And there is always ONE race each season where the consequences are greater than the rest of the races. It just varies by racer which race that will be and what will be at stake.

[t.nie]

The first 26 mean nothing.

Really? Go talk to the guy who didn't finish high enough to make the 16 for the Chase and ask him if there was anything in the first 26 races he wishes hadn't happened or he or the team had done differently so he was 16th not 17th and then claim the first 26 races didn't mean anything.

The first 26 count just as much as the last one.

[A ron]

Sorry, I'm a numbers guy and the only all 26 count as much as the last 10 is not resetting the points. Everytime you reset, you completely remove those previous races influence on the outcome. And yes I know it's all about selling tickets. Looking at the stands on Sunday's, I don't see any improvement. You have your opinion and must like the Chase and all of it's board game type gimmicks, but to me it's no longer about racing. (Back to the topic here) NASCAR made these dumb rules and created this mess and now Kenseth is being punished for it. This system has too many loop holes and is going to continue to increase relying on judgement calls instead of racing.

[t.nie]

Sorry, I'm a numbers guy and the only all 26 count as much as the last 10 is not resetting the points. Everytime you reset, you completely remove those previous races influence on the outcome. And yes I know it's all about selling tickets. Looking at the stands on Sunday's, I don't see any improvement. You have your opinion and must like the Chase and all of it's board game type gimmicks, but to me it's no longer about racing. (Back to the topic here) NASCAR made these dumb rules and created this mess and now Kenseth is being punished for it. This system has too many loop holes and is going to continue to increase relying on judgement calls instead of racing.

Sorry, I am a little lost here. When the Chase starts, the results of the first 26 races all of a sudden don't count? Really? Then ask the guys who finished 17th on back in the first 26 races what chance they have at the Championship. Kind of looks to me like they count. Even more than they used to, because you have to be in the top 16 after 26 to get a shot at the title.

You reset, so you remove those races influence on the outcome? Not really. All you do is eliminate everyone below a certain standard of performance after 26 races. You aren't good enough to win races and get into the top 16, sorry, you don't get to "find your form" at the end of the year, you have to be good all year long.

That's why I said the first 26 count as much as the last one. Just ask the Champion how much every race counts, I bet you the guy lifting that trophy knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that every race counts. Even more so when you aren't points racing all year, because the pressure is way greater when its win or go home instead of strategic finishes to accumulate points.

I believe NASCAR said this system is to reward guys who WIN races, not just run top ten all year long. Sure, some people don't like it because it DOES create more pressure and greater consequences for mistakes.

Oh well. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

As far as loopholes and judgment calls and all the rest, that all existed long before this Chase format came along. There has always been favoritism and judgment calls in Nascar. That didn't start with the Chase.

[Clayton_Wetter]

TS fan if you add up the points for the entire year of 2014, the 24 is the winner all the way. Kevin was fast all year but they made a ton of mistakes. This is from Jayski Unofficial Top 25 in 2014 Sprint Cup Driver Points Standings (not the Chase): [after Homestead, race 36 of 36] (using current points system, but not the Chase rules, unofficial) 1) #24-Jeff Gordon(EC), 1253 2) #22-Joey Logano(C4), 1216, -37 3) #2-Brad Keselowski(EC), 1179, -74 4) #88-Dale Earnhardt Jr.(EC), 1175, -78 5) #4-Kevin Harvick(CH), 1171, -82 6) #31-Ryan Newman(C2), 1136, -117 7) #20-Matt Kenseth(EC), 1131, -122 8) #42-Kyle Larson #, 1080, -173 9) #48-Jimmie Johnson(EC), 1067, -186 10) #99-Carl Edwards(EC), 1059, -194 11) #1-Jamie McMurray, 1014, -239 12) #16-Greg Biffle(EC), 1000, -253 13) #11-Denny Hamlin(C3), 987, -266 (missed a races) 14) #15-Clint Bowyer, 979, -274 15) #18-Kyle Busch(EC), 969, -284 16) #5-Kasey Kahne(EC), 966, -287 17) #3-Austin Dillon #, 958, -295 18) #27-Paul Menard, 944, -309 19) #55-Brian Vickers, 921, -332 20) #41-Kurt Busch(EC), 911, -342 21) #9-Marcos Ambrose, 872, -381 22) #47-AJ Allmendinger(EC), 868, -385 23) #78-Martin Truex Jr., 857, -396 24) #43-Aric Almirola(EC), 820, -433 25) #14-Tony Stewart, 799, -454 (missed 3 races)

That sure brought about silence.