New droop rule

[CarolinaDirt]

My original point if he wanted to do this he should have gotten all sanctioning bodies on board like what happened with the Rumley rule. When you go at it alone it only hurts his car counts .

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

My original point if he wanted to do this he should have gotten all sanctioning bodies on board like what happened with the Rumley rule. When you go at it alone it only hurts his car counts .

Lucas went at Rumley rule alone. Others just fell in line.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

There were thoughts that Ray and others were not going along with the Rumley Rules. Ultimately, unfortunately, they did.

[CageFaraday]

Well I guess I should tell you that I know and have tremendous respect for Ray cook but I don't have to agree with the rule or why he has imposed it. I am not questioning his integrity as I happen to know that he is an honorable fella. He has called several of us that race with him and I can tell you that no one I know of is in agreement with this rule. don't forget that in racing no matter what the rules are it will always be the have and have nots. the big teams can absorb the cost of rule changes much easier than the smaller local guys and that's exactly where I was going in using asphalt late models as an example. Sure there will be guys that will show up no matter what the rules are but I will leave it at this. Be careful what you wish for.

Whether you know Ray or not is irrelevant, you accused him of lying about his intentions with the rules and I take issue with that. The winners, will always win and racing on dirt requires adjustments, always has. All this rule is, is an adjustment and you tune accordingly. Will it take a race or 2 to re-balance the car? Yes, well maybe. The argument about testing is flimsy at best, because most smaller teams don't rent tracks and test anyway. If this situation was reversed and you're chassis builder suddenly offered a new setup that would make you faster, you'd hand over the dough without blinking.

When I was first starting out all we got was a base setup and went racing. Each progressive week of racing was another test and we refined the setup(while we raced), as most any team does that has the drive to win. Unless you are racing for a living, I fail to see why renting tracks and whole day testing is necessary. 85% of those involved in racing do it as a hobby of sorts, not a line of work, so the expense of running won't change. You'll still be buying the same tires, the same fuel and going to the same races, only you may need to refine your setup. This is not the earth shattering event some are making out it is.

[warriorracerg9]

I didn't accuse anyone of lying about anything. I said to tell me that its for my own safety is a joke and in my opinion (which I have a right to as do you yours) it is. we have to have these high dollar cells too but no one says anything when someone has a hole clamp on the fuel line to the fuel pump lol. if we are worried about safetythen enforce the rules that are already in place not keep adding new ones. that's the problem with his board. no one can have a difference of opinion without being able to respectfully debate it.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I didn't accuse anyone of lying about anything. I said to tell me that its for my own safety is a joke and in my opinion (which I have a right to as do you yours) it is. we have to have these high dollar cells too but no one says anything when someone has a hole clamp on the fuel line to the fuel pump lol. if we are worried about safetythen enforce the rules that are already in place not keep adding new ones. that's the problem with his board. no one can have a difference of opinion without being able to respectfully debate it.

Are you not saying the rule isn't about safety?

[Kromulous]

I'm with Warrior on this one, safety is kind of on you when you strap into a 900 hp race car made of sheet alum and tube steal. Dont come crying to me when you hit a wall, were all big boys here.

As for flipping over, non issue being beaten to death.

Enforce the rules you got, yes, how about a safety tech inspection? back in my old Karting days, they would safety tech your kart, and you could NOT run if you didn't have all the bolts wire tied, and or captured. All they want to do now is mandate stuff for the racers to buy $1500 dollar seats, fuel cells, and fire devices, mean while you got guys out with stuff half a$$ put together, doesn't make any sense.

[Illtsate32]

Whether you know Ray or not is irrelevant, you accused him of lying about his intentions with the rules and I take issue with that. The winners, will always win and racing on dirt requires adjustments, always has. All this rule is, is an adjustment and you tune accordingly. Will it take a race or 2 to re-balance the car? Yes, well maybe. The argument about testing is flimsy at best, because most smaller teams don't rent tracks and test anyway. If this situation was reversed and you're chassis builder suddenly offered a new setup that would make you faster, you'd hand over the dough without blinking. When I was first starting out all we got was a base setup and went racing. Each progressive week of racing was another test and we refined the setup(while we raced), as most any team does that has the drive to win. Unless you are racing for a living, I fail to see why renting tracks and whole day testing is necessary. 85% of those involved in racing do it as a hobby of sorts, not a line of work, so the expense of running won't change. You'll still be buying the same tires, the same fuel and going to the same races, only you may need to refine your setup. This is not the earth shattering event some are making out it is.

Ya testing is stricly your personal decision no ones saying you have to go blow money on tires, motor etc dont try blaming that on a rule...

[let-r-eat]

Rolling over is an issue. Anyone saying that there haven't been more rollovers in the last few years than in the last 40 years hasn't been to enough dirt track races. Rules should be made with the poor boy racer in mind but often works in the exact opposite manner. Limiting the height of the deck/spoiler/nose are no brainer rules..... like wheelbase/engine type............

[CageFaraday]

Ya testing is stricly your personal decision no ones saying you have to go blow money on tires, motor etc dont try blaming that on a rule...

Try reading my post again... That's what i said, most teams didn't test or rent tracks before this rule, to claim that now as an expense, that is being a bit disingenuous.

...Its like telling me you are feeding me a steak but I good and well its liver.

You're saying Ray is telling you that you're eating steak when you KNOW it is liver. Which is the same thing a as saying Ray is lying to you about his motives behind the new rule. Bottom line, cars flip more now than they ever have and if left unchecked it will get worse as the cars get higher and higher. We've already had at least 1 death and 1 serious burn injury and several concussions related to flipping and these guys all had the "hot shot" FC seats, which helped to trap them in the car as well. Ray, like a lot of more experienced racers can see the writing on the wall and is making a change. I can debate rules all day long, but I won't tolerate anyone insulting or accusing Ray, even in an indirect manner. Ray is one of the few honestly good guys in racing and should be respected as such. Every point I've made with you you side stepped and now want to talk about hose clamps on fuel lines. I'll make my questions more direct:

1. Prior to this rule did you rent tracks and do all day testing to get your current setup?
2. Do you plan to rent a track and test as a result of this rule?

[crownman25]

it something isn't done next year or by the end of the year the nose height will be 20" what about that guy yall mentioned that does not even have a rf fender top? nascar controlled drop with there splitter you got to have rules and control...between high dollar motors and now high dollar cars our sport is dissolving.My first car was a mastersbilt kit car for $7995.00 that was shocks , springs complete roller. ..you can not buy chassis for that now...the one thing that would solve everything would be move the spring back in front hooked to birdcage!!!!!

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

it something isn't done next year or by the end of the year the nose height will be 20" what about that guy yall mentioned that does not even have a rf fender top? nascar controlled drop with there splitter you got to have rules and control...between high dollar motors and now high dollar cars our sport is dissolving.My first car was a mastersbilt kit car for $7995.00 that was shocks , springs complete roller. ..you can not buy chassis for that now...the one thing that would solve everything would be move the spring back in front hooked to birdcage!!!!!

Cash money series will see your last sentence is incorrect.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Want no hike? Monoleaf.

[crownman25]

look guys super racing is like an endangered species ,if you dont figure out what is killing it it will be gone..sure lucas and woo is flourishing in most areas but that because its the only super stuff in certain area and people flock to it but on the local sat night end racing is dying in alot of places...Ray is looking ahead trying to help save the sport...everytime a car rolls I hold my breath that it doesn't go up in flames...

[Illtsate32]

Try reading my post again... That's what i said, most teams didn't test or rent tracks before this rule, to claim that now as an expense, that is being a bit disingenuous. You're saying Ray is telling you that you're eating steak when you KNOW it is liver. Which is the same thing a as saying Ray is lying to you about his motives behind the new rule. Bottom line, cars flip more now than they ever have and if left unchecked it will get worse as the cars get higher and higher. We've already had at least 1 death and 1 serious burn injury and several concussions related to flipping and these guys all had the "hot shot" FC seats, which helped to trap them in the car as well. Ray, like a lot of more experienced racers can see the writing on the wall and is making a change. I can debate rules all day long, but I won't tolerate anyone insulting or accusing Ray, even in an indirect manner. Ray is one of the few honestly good guys in racing and should be respected as such. Every point I've made with you you side stepped and now want to talk about hose clamps on fuel lines. I'll make my questions more direct:1. Prior to this rule did you rent tracks and do all day testing to get your current setup?2. Do you plan to rent a track and test as a result of this rule?

Ya Cage I was just referencing your statement, no I agree with you 100%...

[Bubstr]

I'm not looking for an argument, but lets take a pragmatic look at this droop rule.

Have you ever seen down force flip a car? They build down force into NASCAR and Indy cars to keep them from flipping.

If a Go Kart can bicycle and flip, it not just height.

A lot of late models dig the nose in the dirt and just turn the nose under, so it isn't the low nose.

Fact is, it is the relationship of the roll centers and the center of gravity. Makes you ask why would they do that? Answer is the closer you are to bicycling, the more side bite and forward bite you have. There is also a balance between front and rear that can put you in a tippy condition at times. It's easier to adjust ballast and rear roll center than the front roll center. Stuff happens. This has been true since the first car raced.

So if we change the droop, the crew chief changes roll centers and center of gravity, to try and get some of that bite back. Once again a tippy car at times, with out the down force to help it stay on all four. This doesn't sound like a fix to anyone that understands this.

So, just exactly what are we trying to fix? I suspect it's not getting drivers hurt. So lets look at why they are getting their bell rung. Answers, are cages are lower, containment seats hold that noggen up and in the way for the blow.

It's just my opinion, but droop is not causing broken noggens. The rule should be, so many inches of clearance above the helmet and while we ar at it, easy egress from right or left side. Does this make any sense to you guys?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I'm not looking for an argument, but lets take a pragmatic look at this droop rule.

Have you ever seen down force flip a car? They build down force into NASCAR and Indy cars to keep them from flipping.

If a Go Kart can bicycle and flip, it not just height.

A lot of late models dig the nose in the dirt and just turn the nose under, so it isn't the low nose.

Fact is, it is the relationship of the roll centers and the center of gravity. Makes you ask why would they do that? Answer is the closer you are to bicycling, the more side bite and forward bite you have. There is also a balance between front and rear that can put you in a tippy condition at times. It's easier to adjust ballast and rear roll center than the front roll center. Stuff happens. This has been true since the first car raced.

So if we change the droop, the crew chief changes roll centers and center of gravity, to try and get some of that bite back. Once again a tippy car at times, with out the down force to help it stay on all four. This doesn't sound like a fix to anyone that understands this.

So, just exactly what are we trying to fix? I suspect it's not getting drivers hurt. So lets look at why they are getting their bell rung. Answers, are cages are lower, containment seats hold that noggen up and in the way for the blow.

It's just my opinion, but droop is not causing broken noggens. The rule should be, so many inches of clearance above the helmet and while we ar at it, easy egress from right or left side. Does this make any sense to you guys?

You can not move mass so high and stay below the ridiculously dropped decking.

[a25rjr]

We've all seen the major heavy components get mounted higher and higher and now even the framerails themselves are higher. It would probly call for a new chassis design to get them back down. I don't think that would fly with the racers or mfrers at this time.

The top of the rollcage def needs to be higher. If you have ever seen the video where the sprint car is used as a test sled, the drivers head moves about 6 inches above the rollcage at impact. I know the cars are totally different but there is a correlation of how far those belts stretch upon a sudden impact.

Something def needs to be done before some of our stars are severely hurt or killed! imo

[Bubstr]

You can not move mass so high and stay below the ridiculously dropped decking.

There are more than one way to skin a cat. Moving a engine and tranny up 1 inch is like moving 20 lbs of ballast 10 inches above that deck. Back in the 60s, I filled a upper rear cage tube full of #8 lead shot. It was too much. Just saying the sheet metal isn't what weighs the most.

If you was really intent on reducing down force, the front end is where you should be looking. Raise that nose and let air under it. The difference of air pressure above and below is what causes down force or airplanes to fly. No seal on the front, no skirts, no carb pans and eliminate the venturi effect of those elephant ear fenders. More effective than a droop rule. This will not keep drivers from head injuries. Getting their head out of the way of the track, can solve this. The way it is now, we hold that head up with a containment seat and hons devise and wac it with the weight of the car. Easy to understand if you look with an open mind. That is just the way I see it, not bashing anyone.

[crownman25]

Here is something else Probb. number one cause of rollovers are broken rf shocks ,yes when a car goes into corner loads bump up shock becomes a solid rod then those hollow stem shock shafts snap off or upper shock mount breaks causing the crossmember and rf frame rail to go into the track and flip the car.. this is why we need rules...its dangerous to be racing on a solid rf suspension its going to break....