Lucas rules

[talclipse]

If the sanctioning bodies would have phased these rules in over time it would have been much better. The incident in southern Ohio was tragic. But, and I mean absolute no disrespect to anyone when I say this, but had any one of these things been slightly different (battery being secured/ isolated, fuel cell having a check valve in the vent/ having a vent hose ran in such a way that fuel wouldnt flow back) that guy would have walked away. To that end it boils down to education and sharing knowledge. Instead of keeping a budget racer safer we are eliminating that guy from ever getting behind the wheel or worse yet he continues to race without the knowledge that what hes doing is not safe and has an incident at some track with laxed safety standards. If they want to spec out SFI ratings for their series thats fine, but SOMEONE needs to disciminate some generally accepted best practices for how to safely build certain aspects of these cars.

[fastford]

here is my take, if its a rule to protect others around you like the wheel covers, then im ok with it , but, im a grown man, i sign a disclosure when i enter the track, if i choose to use a seat that doesnt meet this sfi spec, then it should be my right. If i get hurt or killed that is directly related to not having this expensive specialized equipment, then its on me. In my opinion, i think this whole deal is more money related than safety related. If the sanctioning bodies are this worried about safety, require the tracks to put up some kind of safer barrier and let the sanctioning bodies dump some of there own money into it and i may change my mind........

[fastford]

If the sanctioning bodies would have phased these rules in over time it would have been much better. The incident in southern Ohio was tragic. But, and I mean absolute no disrespect to anyone when I say this, but had any one of these things been slightly different (battery being secured/ isolated, fuel cell having a check valve in the vent/ having a vent hose ran in such a way that fuel wouldnt flow back) that guy would have walked away. To that end it boils down to education and sharing knowledge. Instead of keeping a budget racer safer we are eliminating that guy from ever getting behind the wheel or worse yet he continues to race without the knowledge that what hes doing is not safe and has an incident at some track with laxed safety standards. If they want to spec out SFI ratings for their series thats fine, but SOMEONE needs to disciminate some generally accepted best practices for how to safely build certain aspects of these cars.

great post talclipse

[cutman]

here is my take, if its a rule to protect others around you like the wheel covers, then im ok with it , but, im a grown man, i sign a disclosure when i enter the track, if i choose to use a seat that doesnt meet this sfi spec, then it should be my right. If i get hurt or killed that is directly related to not having this expensive specialized equipment, then its on me. In my opinion, i think this whole deal is more money related than safety related. If the sanctioning bodies are this worried about safety, require the tracks to put up some kind of safer barrier and let the sanctioning bodies dump some of there own money into it and i may change my mind........

I agree with you. Your seat isn't going to affect others safety and I think should be left up to the driver.
I'm all for the fuel/fire safety.

[flagone]

As I said in my Dirt Late Model column this past month...

"I have talked about the fact that my real life everyday job has always skewed some of my attention to the safety aspect of the sport. But if you are a driver let me say this – I have failed you. I have not done even close to enough to protect you. I have not fought hard enough. I have not made enough people mad. I have not shown your safety the full spotlight it deserves. But it is time to get it right...

...this sport is inherently dangerous. Drivers know the risks and accept them. Some even relish those risks. But there is no reason to not do all that you can to protect yourself. So I am going to pledge to do a better job of doing my part to change the culture and help to protect our drivers. I am gonna make you mad and I am okay with that. Because it’s time to get it right."

And you choosing not to protect yourself absolutely affects others. Knocked unconscious and foot on the throttle is just one example. And it affects your loved ones. And you making a choice does not protect the sanctioning body from your loved one suing them. In fact it doesn't protect us from YOU suing us even if YOU make the choice. We live in a world where we have to put labels on hot coffee at restaurants to tell the people that just ordered it that IT IS HOT.

[cutman]

can you not be knocked unconscious in a full containment seat? Has research been done about these seats and the issues with concussions?

[Stede Bonnet]

Has not been addressed that I'm aware of

can you not be knocked unconscious in a full containment seat? Has research been done about these seats and the issues with concussions?

I've brought that up several times and its yet to be addressed. "Full Containment" has been deemed the "end-all, be-all" of seats, despite the fact that it most likely contributed to one death and some serious burns to another. This day and age once a trend gets going it takes something horrendous to derail it. Its kinda like that group that thinks a HANS is going to protect your neck/head no matter what type accident your in.

What I fear most in order:
1) Fire.
2) Being trapped.
3) Permanent Brain damage.

I believe the FC seat is directly linked to the rise in concussion injuries, but the impression I'm getting from the powers that be is, is that its a risk acceptable to them. So this is what the "Next Level" in DLM racing is like...

[flagone]

I have not directly done research on the containment seat and a correlation to head injuries or concussions. However NASCAR has. And EVERY one of their divisions requires a full containment seat and a head and neck restraint. And no form of racing more closely mirrors our racing than they do. And you don't have to like them or the racing they promote but you had better bet your farm on the fact they have done due diligence on the safety items they require.

And you also better be able to substantiate claims that ANY piece of equipment contributed to a death or injury.

So to address your fears.

1. Fire Suppression system along with improved training and equipment at race tracks (and yes there are many in the industry working on that).

2. The above systems will buy you and responders time to escape, extinguish fires and/or be disentangled. We are going to address bodies in the coming sessions. Many of the clearance and space problems are body issues and not seat issues.

3. Take EVERY possible step to prevent it. A good helmet, a good containment seat, a head and neck restraint, quality and IN DATE belts, etc... Because what I DO know about as good or better than anyone on this board is the kinematics of trauma and head injuries. Read about coup / contrecoup.

There is a certain amount of common sense you must employ here. You can be struck by lightning when you walk outside in a storm. You are a lot more likely to be struck by lightning if you are holding a metal pole up in the air.

[fastford]

flagone, when you can assure me that if i buy all this stuff , there is no way i will get hurt, then you will have "done your job" and i will buy what ever you say , I have to agree with stede bonnet , there has not been enough research done to prove if some of this stuff cant do harm also in the right circumstance. i will say all my kids wear a head restraint of some kind , and i agree there needs to be something to keep the head and arms inside the car, i just dont think it needs to be as extreme as these rules seem to make it.

[fastford]

one other thing to consider , talking about my kids got me to thinking, is a late model drivers safety any more important than a street stock or pony car driver? i know were talking series here but, if were talking safety in general, if these rules were to get adopted by all tracks for all divisions , well thats about all she wrote folks.......

[MBR Performance]

Flagone the one thing you forgot to consider is the racers pocketbook. 75% of the local racers cannot afford these types of changes especially over the winter. I understand the effort to improve safety however your very effort is also hurting the sport. Not everyone has $40,000 cars especially on the local level. You want to make it safer then slow the cars down. Put the shock & spring back in front of the LR and eliminate the half rolled over posture of today's cars.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I have not directly done research on the containment seat and a correlation to head injuries or concussions. However NASCAR has. And EVERY one of their divisions requires a full containment seat and a head and neck restraint. And no form of racing more closely mirrors our racing than they do. And you don't have to like them or the racing they promote but you had better bet your farm on the fact they have done due diligence on the safety items they require.

And you also better be able to substantiate claims that ANY piece of equipment contributed to a death or injury.

So to address your fears.

1. Fire Suppression system along with improved training and equipment at race tracks (and yes there are many in the industry working on that).

2. The above systems will buy you and responders time to escape, extinguish fires and/or be disentangled. We are going to address bodies in the coming sessions. Many of the clearance and space problems are body issues and not seat issues.

3. Take EVERY possible step to prevent it. A good helmet, a good containment seat, a head and neck restraint, quality and IN DATE belts, etc... Because what I DO know about as good or better than anyone on this board is the kinematics of trauma and head injuries. Read about coup / contrecoup.

There is a certain amount of common sense you must employ here. You can be struck by lightning when you walk outside in a storm. You are a lot more likely to be struck by lightning if you are holding a metal pole up in the air.

They race much heavier, faster, unyielding vehicles. But certainly they have done homework for their application.
Fire is a racers biggest danger, but we just keep making it harder to get out of the car to prevent the first basal skull fracture.

And when your head hits the track from lack of greenhouse height in a rollover, that containment seat guarantees your vertebrae get a compression fracture.

[Stede Bonnet]

I have not directly done research on the containment seat and a correlation to head injuries or concussions. However NASCAR has. And EVERY one of their divisions requires a full containment seat and a head and neck restraint. And no form of racing more closely mirrors our racing than they do. And you don't have to like them or the racing they promote but you had better bet your farm on the fact they have done due diligence on the safety items they require.

And you also better be able to substantiate claims that ANY piece of equipment contributed to a death or injury.

So to address your fears.

1. Fire Suppression system along with improved training and equipment at race tracks (and yes there are many in the industry working on that).

2. The above systems will buy you and responders time to escape, extinguish fires and/or be disentangled. We are going to address bodies in the coming sessions. Many of the clearance and space problems are body issues and not seat issues.

3. Take EVERY possible step to prevent it. A good helmet, a good containment seat, a head and neck restraint, quality and IN DATE belts, etc... Because what I DO know about as good or better than anyone on this board is the kinematics of trauma and head injuries. Read about coup / contrecoup.

There is a certain amount of common sense you must employ here. You can be struck by lightning when you walk outside in a storm. You are a lot more likely to be struck by lightning if you are holding a metal pole up in the air.

Thank you for responding directly to my questions, I appreciate that. I disagree that we have anything in common with Nascar though. I appreciate your efforts and concern for drivers safety, but I still feel apples to apples logic is not being employed and the solutions don't all fit the issues we have. We had 2 serious fires this year that I know about, both involved drivers unable to escape their cars resulting in injury and death. We had several flips & rollovers resulting in concussions and a torn artery. All these drivers had these systems in place, except fire suppression. In the fires I'm sure the suppression systems would have made a measurable difference in those out comes.

Nascar has a perimeter style frames and the drivers area is accessible from both sides of the car.
We have parallel frames with access only on drivers side primarily.

Nascar races on always smooth asphalt surfaces.
We race on an ever changing dirt surface, prone to holes and ruts that induces flips, rollovers and violent shaking of the driver.

If I had to pick a motorsport we share similarities to, aside from the obvious Big Block Mods & Sprints, it would be World Ralley cars, not Cup. Emulating Nascar in anyway I feel is a mistake, but I'm done beating this horse, I know my opinion is most likely nothing but an annoyance to those who wanted to push all this thru. Even USAC doesn't mandate FC seats in dirt sprints, you are allowed either nets or FC and is the drivers discretion.

[RCJ]

The comment from talclipse about a fuel vent that won't drain when upside down is something I never thought of.I have a check valve but I think I 'll replum my vent.2 things that I want to add,Helmets-I seen drivers get head injurys and go back with the same helmet.Helmets deteriorate inside after a hit. Physical fitness-we all should be,but it is even more important to a driver.

[mcarter815]

here is my take, if its a rule to protect others around you like the wheel covers, then im ok with it , but, im a grown man, i sign a disclosure when i enter the track, if i choose to use a seat that doesnt meet this sfi spec, then it should be my right. If i get hurt or killed that is directly related to not having this expensive specialized equipment, then its on me. In my opinion, i think this whole deal is more money related than safety related. If the sanctioning bodies are this worried about safety, require the tracks to put up some kind of safer barrier and let the sanctioning bodies dump some of there own money into it and i may change my mind........

That's a selfish point of view. Your death or injury impacts more than just you. It impacts your family both emotionally and financially. It impacts the fans in the stands who have just had a fun night at the races ruined. It impacts racing as a whole because racing can only survive so many deaths before the government steps in or fans stop coming.