So, SAS-LUCAS-WoO, we're all concerned about $Expensive$ Shock Systems, What about...

[W2Racing09]

Here is someone that knows that Aluminum is more cost effective over the long run. They don't give steel billet blocks away and cast iron, doesn't lend it's self to longevity.

I don't believe, engine limitations are effective and they are almost impossible to enforce. The only answer is to limit traction in one way or another. If they can't use it, they won't buy it. Another tool could be to eliminate time trials. This is where big horsepower has a advantage, if conditions are right.

Look at the Mods, with a smaller and harder tire, it allows crates to compete with open engines, with little penalty. Some open engine builders are even de-tuneing their engines to be competitive. With less power, longevity goes up and cost comes down.

The worse idea is weight breaks and spoiler variations to off set a advantage. The cost of running a crate engine is it's advantage. If we make them competitive with weight breaks and more spoiler, are we going to give money to the open engine guy to be fair? How about reducing tire size for the cure. It's been done before and was effective. You no longer see those big humper sprint car tires. It's very easy to police.

How can you say the cost of running a Crate is its advantage? Nobody would buy them if they are not equal on the track. You don't have to give extra money to the open guys... they are the ones who went out and bought a $50k motor. By your logic why not just run a 4cyl motor in your SLM -- the cost savings is it's advantage -- no need for any rules to even them up.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Josh Bayko]

I don't think they should outlaw any of the engines currently run, I just think they need to create some rules to give the CT525 a chance against them.

In a later post he opined that eliminating aluminum blocks and mandating certain heads out would be a way to "fix" engine costs.

As far as the CT525, there are lots of places where they are allowed to run with supers with weight breaks and 12" spoilers, and have for a few years. It hasn't caught on. If it really was the panacea everybody thinks it would be for engine costs they'd be far more popular then they are now.

I think a lot of people grossly overestimate what local/regional teams spend on engines. I personally know of a lot of teams that have spent significantly less than the 50k number thrown around and are very competitive.

[hpmaster]

The team I work with has 2 over 830 hp motors that cost $20,000 each. The same game that can't limit tires, compounds, do proper tech isn't going to limit engines past "crates", get real, were screwed.

[W2Racing09]

In a later post he opined that eliminating aluminum blocks and mandating creating heads out would be a way to "fix" engine costs.

As far as the CT525, there are lots of places where they are allowed to run with supers with weight breaks and 12" spoilers, and have for a few years. It hasn't caught on. If it really was the panacea everybody thinks it would be for engine costs, if it was, they'd be far more popular then they are now.

I think a lot of people grossly overestimate what local/regional teams spend on engines. I personally know of a lot of teams that have spent significantly less than the 50k number thrown around and are very competitive.

They have not caught on because they are not equal, sure they cost a lot less money and that is the advantage to them as Bubstr said. However you might as well throw your $10k into the wind if it has no chance of winning. I think a few drivers have won here or there, but they are certainly not equal with a $50k motor. I don't think they need to be 100% equal but if they are 90% equal then a good driver can overcome the last 10%. The biggest thing that they need to do is increase the weight for all cars by 100lb, and then give the Crates a 150lb weight break. That would give the Crates an attainable weight break that might be meaningful.

I don't think everyone has a $50k motor, but many do. I think to buy a new one from a big time manufacturer like Cornett, or Pro Power you are looking at that range for sure.

[huskerdirt]

The reason CT525 hasn't caught on more because it doesn't have a chance at these big tracks like Eldora.....dry or tacky.

The big sanctions aren't gonna allow it because 1. They can't police it. How many times a year does a guy get caught with something illegal. 2. This is big boy racing when Lucas/WoO roll into town. Why would it fair if a local guy gets a weight break and bigger spoiler just because he has a crate. That's like telling the guy that brings a knife to a gun fight....here's some more knives.

[Josh Bayko]

They have not caught on because they are not equal, sure they cost a lot less money and that is the advantage to them as Bubstr said. However you might as well throw your $10k into the wind if it has no chance of winning. I think a few drivers have won here or there, but they are certainly not equal with a $50k motor. I don't think they need to be 100% equal but if they are 90% equal then a good driver can overcome the last 10%. The biggest thing that they need to do is increase the weight for all cars by 100lb, and then give the Crates a 150lb weight break. That would give the Crates an attainable weight break that might be meaningful.

I don't think everyone has a $50k motor, but many do. I think to buy a new one from a big time manufacturer like Cornett, or Pro Power you are looking at that range for sure.

You clearly don't want the 525 to just be competitive, you want it to be dominant.

They've been given weight breaks that big. They've been given huge spoilers and such. They've won a fair amount of races. They're just not that popular. Racers don't like them for whatever reason. Its quite possible that the drivability of the motor just isn't where it needs to be for a dirt late model.

You're still really overestimating how many of these 50k engines are in circulation.

[W2Racing09]

The reason CT525 hasn't caught on more because it doesn't have a chance at these big tracks like Eldora.....dry or tacky.

The big sanctions aren't gonna allow it because 1. They can't police it. How many times a year does a guy get caught with something illegal. 2. This is big boy racing when Lucas/WoO roll into town. Why would it fair if a local guy gets a weight break and bigger spoiler just because he has a crate. That's like telling the guy that brings a knife to a gun fight....here's some more knives.

Giving the guy with the knife more knives certainly does not ensure victory, but it might give him a better opportunity to get lucky. I guess what I mean is, if the purpose of the fight is to entertain people wouldn't it be a failure if only the guy with the gun showed up?

If you only have the drivers who have enough money to buy the best equipment show up then you will have 13-14 cars. There are not many tracks in this country that will pay the sanction fee and purse that those series' require when they get that car count.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

You clearly don't want the 525 to just be competitive, you want it to be dominant.

They've been given weight breaks that big. They've been given huge spoilers and such. They've won a fair amount of races. They're just not that popular. Racers don't like them for whatever reason. Its quite possible that the drivability of the motor just isn't where it needs to be for a dirt late model.

You're still really overestimating how many of these 50k engines are in circulation.

I would wager that nearly 90% of the engines in the cars running the National tours are those $50k or so engines. There are also quite a few in our general area as well. In fact Crowl is still trying to sell the motor out of the #7 from last season for $42k after being race several times. I wonder what the initial purchase price on that was.

The point is to make the CT525 an option, it is not an option if you either need the perfect track conditions (which happen 25% of the time or less) or a meteor to take out the top 10 cars for you to have a chance at a win. They need to be equal or as close to it as possible, and right now they are not. Are you telling me that Josh Richards can throw a CT525 in his car and go out and continue to win WoO races this season? That is when they will be equal, when they are a legitimate option for National drivers. When they have a chance of picking up a few big wins per season.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[huskerdirt]

Giving the guy with the knife more knives certainly does not ensure victory, but it might give him a better opportunity to get lucky. I guess what I mean is, if the purpose of the fight is to entertain people wouldn't it be a failure if only the guy with the gun showed up?

If you only have the drivers who have enough money to buy the best equipment show up then you will have 13-14 cars. There are not many tracks in this country that will pay the sanction fee and purse that those series' require when they get that car count.

Thanks,
Jeff.

Well if that's a national tour race. Chances are you'll have atleast 15 guys show up with a gun. Even when the big boys roll into my area. There are couple of boys that put the spec car in garage and bring out the open motor car. Now, they may only run that car one or twice a year but they hold there own. And I will guranatee that there open motors aren't even close to what you would pay at ProPower or anybody else.

[W2Racing09]

Well if that's a national tour race. Chances are you'll have atleast 15 guys show up with a gun. Even when the big boys roll into my area. There are couple of boys that put the spec car in garage and bring out the open motor car. Now, they may only run that car one or twice a year but they hold there own. And I will guranatee that there open motors aren't even close to what you would pay at ProPower or anybody else.

For now yes, but the car counts are on a downward spiral and have been for the better part of 15 years. As the costs continue to climb you will see fewer and fewer drivers able to field a car for one or two races, or even more in the SLM division. That is when you get just the tour regulars coming to shows. It already happens, last year the WoO series struggled to get full fields at some of their races in the South East. Think back to 10 or 15 years ago, would a $10k to win show ever have to worry about getting a full field?

[Josh Bayko]

I would wager that nearly 90% of the engines in the cars running the National tours are those $50k or so engines. There are also quite a few in our general area as well. In fact Crowl is still trying to sell the motor out of the #7 from last season for $42k after being race several times. I wonder what the initial purchase price on that was.

The point is to make the CT525 an option, it is not an option if you either need the perfect track conditions (which happen 25% of the time or less) or a meteor to take out the top 10 cars for you to have a chance at a win. They need to be equal or as close to it as possible, and right now they are not. Are you telling me that Josh Richards can throw a CT525 in his car and go out and continue to win WoO races this season? That is when they will be equal, when they are a legitimate option for National drivers. When they have a chance of picking up a few big wins per season.

Thanks,
Jeff.

The national tours are the last place you're ever going to control costs. I don't think you realize that. They are the teams with the most money to begin with. If things degrade to 5 or 6 cars on each tour, you'll see The World of Outlaws presented by Lucas Oil long before you'll see them get into the crate business. Crates go against everything the big late model tours stand for.

You know what would help dirt late model racing (and all short track racing, really). Actual promotion. It's a lost art, and the tracks that actually do it seem to get a decent car count and a good crowd. Fix the tracks before you fix the cars racing on them.

[slmcrewchief99]

Open is open and crate is crate. If you want to run a CT525 with us then so be it. Don't ask for any breaks cause you aint getting any. If you want to be equal then go by an open engine. I wouldn't have one anyway, even if ya give it to me. The bowtie on it makes me sick. We will stick with our Blue Oval. Ford was there at the beginning of the crate deal just like chevy. All the chevy guys were getting spanked by the 302 crate engine. Then here come NESMITH and everyone jumped on the wagon. Ya'll asked for it. Now you can lay in it. If you want to run crate then you have a series for it. And you can even run a National point series.
Spec engines are obsolete. At 1 time they were a great cost effective way to go. Not now. You will spend over $20g on a good spec. You can buy a REAL good used open engine for that. It makes no difference what you do its all about money. There are the have's and have not's. If you can't afford it then drop back a class. If you still can't afford it, then go help a team that can. They could always use the help. The guys I help will sell all their stuff and take up bowling if we had to run a chevy. That's a fact.
I'm not trying to hurt any feelings by saying all this. Just calling it the way it is. I agree that some things need to change but CT525 is not it. Sorry. I do believe that when something is done on tires it will help a ton. Everyone jumped on board Lucas Oil and their tire rule. That's all bs cause right off the bat the RR tire priced jumped $15.00. If something needs changed it needs to start there. Hard tire rule cuts down on the HP but it WILL NOT make the engine prices go down. Cut back on us have to take 50 plus tires to the track every week would tickle me s**tless. Put a leash on the "Purple Mafia" and eliminate some tires.

[W2Racing09]

Open is open and crate is crate. If you want to run a CT525 with us then so be it. Don't ask for any breaks cause you aint getting any. If you want to be equal then go by an open engine. I wouldn't have one anyway, even if ya give it to me. The bowtie on it makes me sick. We will stick with our Blue Oval. Ford was there at the beginning of the crate deal just like chevy. All the chevy guys were getting spanked by the 302 crate engine. Then here come NESMITH and everyone jumped on the wagon. Ya'll asked for it. Now you can lay in it. If you want to run crate then you have a series for it. And you can even run a National point series.
Spec engines are obsolete. At 1 time they were a great cost effective way to go. Not now. You will spend over $20g on a good spec. You can buy a REAL good used open engine for that. It makes no difference what you do its all about money. There are the have's and have not's. If you can't afford it then drop back a class. If you still can't afford it, then go help a team that can. They could always use the help. The guys I help will sell all their stuff and take up bowling if we had to run a chevy. That's a fact.
I'm not trying to hurt any feelings by saying all this. Just calling it the way it is. I agree that some things need to change but CT525 is not it. Sorry. I do believe that when something is done on tires it will help a ton. Everyone jumped on board Lucas Oil and their tire rule. That's all bs cause right off the bat the RR tire priced jumped $15.00. If something needs changed it needs to start there. Hard tire rule cuts down on the HP but it WILL NOT make the engine prices go down. Cut back on us have to take 50 plus tires to the track every week would tickle me s**tless. Put a leash on the "Purple Mafia" and eliminate some tires.

You are a have.

You and the rest of you that run the Lucas and WoO series NEED have nots to fill the field or your series will not be around 15 years from now. As it is you are looking at just 10-11 cars on each tour this season, what happens the night you don't get 13-14 regional cars to fill your field? What happens on a night when you only get 5 or 6 regional cars. Will the fans be happy to pay $35 to see a 16 car feature?

Thanks,
Jeff.

[huskerdirt]

For now yes, but the car counts are on a downward spiral and have been for the better part of 15 years. As the costs continue to climb you will see fewer and fewer drivers able to field a car for one or two races, or even more in the SLM division. That is when you get just the tour regulars coming to shows. It already happens, last year the WoO series struggled to get full fields at some of their races in the South East. Think back to 10 or 15 years ago, would a $10k to win show ever have to worry about getting a full field?

Car counts aren't in a downward spiral. The only place youve seen a significant drop is at Eldora, and Florida. Why so many drivers went to Eldora to run maybe two laps at speed is beyond me. And Florida is such a money waster because the tracks either eat tires or motors. I remember going to 10k to win shows in 90s and you had 35-40 cars. Today you still get that many for a 10k show for the most part. Knoxville since Lucas has come on board has seen car counts rise. Eldora had 120 cars this year. World Finals is still getting over 70 cars.

The problem in the southeast is you have super late models, limited late models, 602 crate class, 604 crate class, 525 crate class. 5 classes of late models...... ridiculous. Now you have all these crate SERIES popping up left and right.

[Bubstr]

If you got a crate 525 and a weight break and spoiler to make it 90% competitive, the first thing that would be done, is a new port profile and cam to make it 100%. Put a seal replication with that. First you have a 40k savings to spend somewhere else. You can always find some place to spend it. Policing it would be a nightmare. But if you take some tire width and circumference away, it makes the extra ponies worthless and it penalizes all to the same standard. Think about what happened to the winged wedge cars and big humper tires, back in the day. It made the cars a little slower, but the racing got better. It might be a good idea to remove spoilers and set deck lid height max, at full rebound, to get rid of that dirty air thing.


If someone went down to the auto parts store and bought $100 Monroe shocks, would you give them a weight break or spoiler to make them competitive?