So, SAS-LUCAS-WoO, we're all concerned about $Expensive$ Shock Systems, What about...

[W2Racing09]

The national tours are the last place you're ever going to control costs. I don't think you realize that. They are the teams with the most money to begin with. If things degrade to 5 or 6 cars on each tour, you'll see The World of Outlaws presented by Lucas Oil long before you'll see them get into the crate business. Crates go against everything the big late model tours stand for.

You know what would help dirt late model racing (and all short track racing, really). Actual promotion. It's a lost art, and the tracks that actually do it seem to get a decent car count and a good crowd. Fix the tracks before you fix the cars racing on them.

With 10 or 11 cars running the full tours I think the National tours are the first place that costs need to be controlled.

As for promotion, I agree - there are a few tracks around that do a good job buy by and large most seem content to get sub par crowds. Honestly a few tracks could close in some areas and as sad as it is it would be very beneficial to local racing. I'm very concerned about the SLM counts in my area with Cumberland and Hesston reopening this year to split cars in an area where some tracks were already getting 12-13 for regular shows.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[huskerdirt]

You are a have.

You and the rest of you that run the Lucas and WoO series NEED have nots to fill the field or your series will not be around 15 years from now. As it is you are looking at just 10-11 cars on each tour this season, what happens the night you don't get 13-14 regional cars to fill your field? What happens on a night when you only get 5 or 6 regional cars. Will the fans be happy to pay $35 to see a 16 car feature?

Thanks,
Jeff.

They are only gonna get 10-11 cars that follow the tour because the point fund only pays for the top ten. When K Rob followed the WoO he finished 11th in points...... He got a whopping $500 for his efforts. Good grief 10th in the MLRA pays atleast 1000.

The only track I've seen on WoO/Lucas not get full fields consistently is tazwell. And last year they had standing room only for there shows.

[W2Racing09]

If you got a crate 525 and a weight break and spoiler to make it 90% competitive, the first thing that would be done, is a new port profile and cam to make it 100%. Put a seal replication with that. First you have a 40k savings to spend somewhere else. You can always find some place to spend it. Policing it would be a nightmare. But if you take some tire width and circumference away, it makes the extra ponies worthless and it penalizes all to the same standard. Think about what happened to the winged wedge cars and big humper tires, back in the day. It made the cars a little slower, but the racing got better. It might be a good idea to remove spoilers and set deck lid height max, at full rebound, to get rid of that dirty air thing.


I someone went down to the auto parts store and bought $100 Monroe shocks, would you give them a weight break or spoiler to make them competitive?

If it were a sealed spec shock, then sure. You can't just tell everyone to find a motor for under $10k and you get a weight break and a big spoiler. It needs to be researched and able to be enforced. But if that happens then they certainly should get a weight break, however in a Super Late Model I don't think a $100 shock would be appropriate, just like I don't think the 602/604 Crates are appropriate for SLM racing. I'm not asking it to become a series where NeSmith and RUSH cars are running in a WoO show, the CT525 is much more powerful than those motors, but still nothing when compared with a $50k cornett motor and no other advantages. That is the problem.

[slmcrewchief99]

Wrong. We are the haves every other week maybe. We don't run on the National level. We run regionally and go to some select National events. If you look at the super late car numbers on a national level across the country you will see that they are on the rise. There are a lot of new guys racing supers right now. Even in the crate division you see more guys stepping up. You are wrong in assuming that the end of super racing is coming. They will always be here, just like 410 sprints. Like I said. Some things need to change. Making everyone run a crate engine is ridiculous.

[W2Racing09]

Wrong. We are the haves every other week maybe. We don't run on the National level. We run regionally and go to some select National events. If you look at the super late car numbers on a national level across the country you will see that they are on the rise. There are a lot of new guys racing supers right now. Even in the crate division you see more guys stepping up. You are wrong in assuming that the end of super racing is coming. They will always be here, just like 410 sprints. Like I said. Some things need to change. Making everyone run a crate engine is ridiculous.

Who said anything about making everyone run a crate engine?

[Josh Bayko]

With 10 or 11 cars running the full tours I think the National tours are the first place that costs need to be controlled.

As for promotion, I agree - there are a few tracks around that do a good job buy by and large most seem content to get sub par crowds. Honestly a few tracks could close in some areas and as sad as it is it would be very beneficial to local racing. I'm very concerned about the SLM counts in my area with Cumberland and Hesston reopening this year to split cars in an area where some tracks were already getting 12-13 for regular shows.

Thanks,
Jeff.

If you penalize the big guys, you're penalizing the small guys even worse. I don't think you realize that. I'm not sure you understand how racing actually works.

[W2Racing09]

If you penalize the big guys, you're penalizing the small guys even worse. I don't think you realize that. I'm not sure you understand how racing actually works.

Really Josh? What is it that you don't think I understand?

Please explain how you think penalizing big guys hurts the small guys even more? I'm not sure you have ever fielded a race car of any kind. While I'm still learning about dirt racing after three years I can tell you that I have been involved with asphalt racing on every side of the fence (fan, promoter, crew member and driver) for the better part of 20 years. In all of those years I have never seen a situation where costs are controlled to stop teams from outspending the under funded teams not work as intended.

I don't think anyone would be penalized by giving a crate engine a weight break, it is done in series' all over the country (please note, USMTS, Pro All Stars Series, uFO Late Models, Limited Late Model divisions everywhere, etc.)

Thanks,
Jeff.

[FlatTire]

Lets say you ran a national tour comprised of 60 races. Your tire and engine bill might look like this:

Tires:
60races x 5tires/race x $165each = $49,500

Open Engine:

You would need 2 engines @ $50,000/each. They would need freshened every 10 races or so at $10,000 a refresh.

$50,000/engine x 2 + $10,000/refresh x 4 = $140,000

Now lets say we did the same thing with a CT525:

Summit is selling them for $7189.87 with free shipping. Lets just go ahead and order two of them and run them 30nights a piece.

CT525 Engine:

$7189.87/engine x 2 = $14,380

Seems like the engine costs is the real issue? Is it not?

I see more and more good paying 602/604/CT525 Crate races all the time. Wonder why that is? What happens when some of the lesser funded national touring guys say enough is enough and start hitting some of the good paying crate races?

[W2Racing09]

Lets say you ran a national tour comprised of 60 races. Your tire and engine bill might look like this:

Tires:
60races x 5tires/race x $165each = $49,500

Open Engine:

You would need 2 engines @ $50,000/each. They would need freshened every 10 races or so at $10,000 a refresh.

$50,000/engine x 2 + $10,000/refresh x 4 = $140,000

Now lets say we did the same thing with a CT525:

Summit is selling them for $7189.87 with free shipping. Lets just go ahead and order two of them and run them 30nights a piece.

CT525 Engine:

$7189.87/engine x 2 = $14,380

Seems like the engine costs is the real issue? Is it not?

I see more and more good paying 602/604/CT525 Crate races all the time. If I lived down south I know exactly what I'd do.

Don't bring logic in here FlatTire, logic dies in this thread.

Good post, btw.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[FlatTire]

lol yeah its a real buzzkill. It just makes it so simple that it takes all the fun out of it. ;-) Maybe somebody will come along and tell me my numbers are way off.

I'd love to see somebody take a CT525 out on a national "open engine" tour. I think Chevrolet could open some eyes if they put a top driver in one.

[Necrosis]

So what do we do when there are still 50+ guys who don't care to spend big money, because the want the baddest and best? Since SLM's will have been effectively turned into LLM's, do we create a new class that is the epitome of DLM? Maybe we could call it Super-Duper-Late-Models? Half of this argument is nothing but circular logic reinforced by a poor representation and understanding of language. I would think a better answer is to increasingly promote LLM racing, so the guys who can't afford SLM can go somewhere that puts on a good show and make some money. Why can't people play within their means? People will always want to see what SLM was MEANT to be--Very open rules, a place where not everybody can cut it. All these threads reek of an affirmative action mentality, the YMCA everyone gets a trophy ideal. What happens when, hypothetically, there are 3 dominant chassis brands, and the cost doubles on them? Then do you argue for a spec chassis? Where does this stop? This is not Red Ruskie Racing. SLM's epitomize the freedom we enjoy in a capitalist economy, where the best and the brightest rise to the top. That's how is was created, there is no shame in moving down a class. And you know what? If there are only 10 SLM's left, and 200 LLM's at every show, then so be it. That will be the decision of a FREE MARKET, not people thinking they know what is best for everyone else!

[bb14]

Necrosis - you hit it. SLM isn't for everyone. We can't dumb it down. I do agree we have too many series. I also agree with most that we need to think about costs. However I don't think we can do away with the engines. I will not watch a crate race. I have interests in a successful team but I am bored to watch the races. Sorry but that is how I feel.

Weekly needs LLM. Crates or 525 can run that class. I don't agree with handicapping supers. Unfortunately this is an expensive hobby.

I also feel that a spec fuel for crates should be required. I am a distributor and top teams use the moto fuels that approach $30/gallon. If you limit costs then you need to limit the limited classes. Of course local teams will still spend $30k on limited engines just like some are outspending crates.

My point is racing may not be fair. Just like life we are not equal. If you want to be equal run crates and you will see that you will be outspent there too.

[hucktyson]

Half of the people with these opinions on what needs to change don't even race a car !! I races at the world and DTWC this year on either of those tracks if you had 750 hp you had plenty to win on those conditions . The tire selection was limited at both races and they tested for juicing . I have several sets of Ohlins shocks and every piston and shim they make as well as a dyno to tune them . I didnt get outspent I got beat because those guys are better drivers and better able to adjust for changing conditions than I am !! I could have built any shock I wanted to and clearly I picked the wrong ones lol. The world was my second race in a new car and second race of the year, there is no rule anyone can create that gives me a legit opportunity to win those type of races and there's no amount of money you can spend either . You need to race as much as those guys and be as prepared as they are to beat them . I agree with the rules eliminating inverters and any sort of computer controlled suspension devices because at that point you have to have a legitimate engineer involved to have a chance. I got killed at both of those races but nothin about either Experiance made me feel I couldn't go back an do
Better without rule changes . People don't understand if guys can't afford to race now they can't afford it if you save them 10k either

[W2Racing09]

The problem is that you guys are thinking that we are those everyone gets a trophy, must be fair, type of people. That is NOT the argument we are making. I am talking about the longevity of the division, not how fair it is. Nobody is arguing that it costs money, but the amount of money it costs is quickly outpacing the amount of money they are racing for. That means that even the best teams are losing money (please note Scott Bloomquist last year). If that continues to happen that division will die, and that is not what anyone wants.

You are not handicapping SLMs, you are giving concessions (Weight Break and 12" Spoiler) to the 525s. If the SLM cars are still just as fast as they are now, but the 525s are able to keep up then what is the problem?

Calling them LLMs is not the answer to this problem, the answer to this problem would be something that causes Crown Jewel events and the regular $10k show for both series to have healthy car counts. How is letting the 525 cars run in another division going to help that problem?

The counts at many shows are hovering close to a full field, 5 years down the road I think it will be the norm to see races with less than a full field in these series' and that is when tracks will start to pull the plug on them. When that happens the SLM division is really going to be in trouble.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[allWIS1]

I don't know so much that the people that don't race (the fans) are worried so much about drivers going out and beating Owens, Lanigan Bloomquist or whoever as much as we are concerned about them being the only ones left racing. We are not to far away from having only 20 cars at 50,000 to win races.