So, SAS-LUCAS-WoO, we're all concerned about $Expensive$ Shock Systems, What about...

[Barbecueboy]

There are no super tracks running weekly in SC, one in NC, one in GA. East TN used to be a hotbed. I don't think they have anymore either. When crates started some new people bought them but once they found out how much it cost to operate a late model most quit. Some of the super guys dropped back too. The fans didn't like the racing and quit going. It is not the same show. Now that the tracks didn't have the people the crate purses were cut. More racers quit. If the tracks would have never done away with limiteds we may still have late models. I wish the crates and limiteds would be combined including 525. We do have a series of limiteds and the 525 is competitive.

Which track in NC runs supers weekly?.........I didn't know anybody over there ran them weekly.
Thanks for the help.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Mark it on the calendar

I freaking pretty much agree with Huck. Except on using PMS as a guideline for anything other than how to gouge what little fans and cars you get outta a$$loads of money. No matter what you do the haves will outspend the have nots to keep a leg up. Look at crates, was going to be the training ground and place for guys who can't afford supers to race and still win. And they cheat them up and spend the money everywhere else. Doesn't matter the class either, there will be those who outspend everyone else to win.

Tires is the place to do something. Three compounds and be very strict on the testing. And good luck with that with the Purple Mafia in charge of pretty much every track. And car counts are down most places because the cost have went up, and the purses have stayed flat. And people, especially those with a family, just say fuk it, it ain't worth it anymore.

Racing is just like everything else in every way. There will always be those who have more money, cheat more than you, work harder than you, and are generally better than you. Fact of life, you deal with it and do what ya can to be a good person and be successful.

[drano]

you have to look at it 2 ways a hobby or a business. I raced a few years as a hobby my kids got bigger so I wanted more time and money to spend with them so I let the hobby go and it got so expensive it just wasn't fun anymore and if your hobby isn't fun you need to get a new one.

The other is like a business and if a business dosen't make money it dosen't survive. The ones that do survive are not only good drivers but savvy business men and a rich sugar daddy doesn't hurt but a bad business man can sink that ship also.

[NormP]

If I am following along, there's several things to ponder
Back in the "good old days" racing didn't have as many rules to keep parts expenses down...so with fewer rules to restrict what you bought or built, what kept expenses from skyrocketing?

Were expenses down because stuff cost less back then--because income to expense ratio was much more favorable? If that's the case, it's not a parts problem, it's an economic problem that's bigger than racing.

Will you ever enact enough rules to make racing affordable, and if you make it affordable will you also make it super boring?

And most importantly, why restrict the costs? How about "If you can't afford to be competitive, race a lower class, find a cheaper hobby, or start your own series with the rules you want?"

[Josh Bayko]

I'm not sure why you have been so hostile, I've always respected your posts. Especially earlier in this post accusing me of not knowing how racing works. That was one of the most ignorant things I've ever read on this board. I don't agree with Huck on a lot of things but I don't discount the fact that he knows a lot about racing. The same for you, I don't always agree with you but you seem to have a pretty good grasp of what is going on. I'm not insulting anyone in this post, I'm stating my opinion on the matter, clearly there are a bunch who agree with it and there are a bunch who don't. Everyone else has been for the most part respectful, you are the last person I expected to start having problems with.

Who did they race against, IE: What tracks, series, etc. did they race against? Did they schedule around the other series or tracks?

That is the first step to starting a new series, if you run against other series and track it will be hard to build your car count. You are asking them to take a chance, stop doing what they are and have been doing and come race with you instead.

Thanks,
Jeff.

The reason why I got hostile was your inability to reason with any of this. You've been told, multiple times, and by multiple people that it hasn't worked and it's been tried a bunch, actual racers are telling you why it's a bad idea. Fans with better grasp of dirt racing than you are telling you it's a bad idea. You're responding like a child with his fingers in his ears going "LA LA LA, I'm still right". That's why I suggested you don't really understand racing.

The only evidence you've suggested is an asphalt late model series (that's starting to falter, from what I understand) that went ALL crate and how wildly successful it is. I'm one of the very few people on this board that is as big an asphalt fan as I am a dirt fan, and I can tell you, the crossover between the two subsets is minimal. Very little of what's been successful in asphalt racing can be utilized in dirt racing, and vice versa. The racers and fanbases are polar opposites.

I was pretty rude in retrospect to get hostile and I apologize for that, but it's pretty clear you need to learn a little more about dirt racing. You'll have a deeper understanding of the sport and have better suggestions for realistic solutions to the problems that exist within it.

[zyoung25]

I keep reading how car counts are on the decline. For the most part the tracks that have been established in my area for as long as I can remember, the counts have been about the same for years, except for mods, which seem to increase every year.

Moler always pulls about 15-20 lates and mods each a week and run on Friday nights, which isn't the best night to run but with so many tracks around they can't really ask for much more than that.

Prp & Kc/Atomic get around 20 each of lates and pull close to 30 mods a week, and they are about hour and a half apart. Prp has a steel block class and they normally get 15-20 of them a week. Back before atomic opened back up Prp was getting 30+ lates a week.

I'm not sure what else a fan would want. I go to the races at a y of these tracks and normally see what's expected.

Florence has introduced the crate cars.....I've been there and watched them. They are about like watching a car rust. We slow the supers down to where thee crates can contend with them, you think tracks will survive? I don't, cuz I normally go walk around or whatever when the crates are racing. It's sad to say...it was like watching go kart racing.

I seen the 230 cars was mentioned at the world 100. I've been too every world 100 since 91 and seen most if not all of the huge car counts. Over half of those cars didn't need to be there. I knew guys who went and their sole reason for goin was to try and make cut of 120. If they done that, they were happy. It was just about the experience.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

I keep reading how car counts are on the decline. For the most part the tracks that have been established in my area for as long as I can remember, the counts have been about the same for years, except for mods, which seem to increase every year.

Moler always pulls about 15-20 lates and mods each a week and run on Friday nights, which isn't the best night to run but with so many tracks around they can't really ask for much more than that.

Prp & Kc/Atomic get around 20 each of lates and pull close to 30 mods a week, and they are about hour and a half apart. Prp has a steel block class and they normally get 15-20 of them a week. Back before atomic opened back up Prp was getting 30+ lates a week.

I'm not sure what else a fan would want. I go to the races at a y of these tracks and normally see what's expected.

Florence has introduced the crate cars.....I've been there and watched them. They are about like watching a car rust. We slow the supers down to where thee crates can contend with them, you think tracks will survive? I don't, cuz I normally go walk around or whatever when the crates are racing. It's sad to say...it was like watching go kart racing.

I seen the 230 cars was mentioned at the world 100. I've been too every world 100 since 91 and seen most if not all of the huge car counts. Over half of those cars didn't need to be there. I knew guys who went and their sole reason for goin was to try and make cut of 120. If they done that, they were happy. It was just about the experience.

Was going to touch on that Zac. About the big World car counts and most being just happy to be there. We are in a pretty good area though too.

[Necrosis]

If it's going to die, let it die an honarable death at least! On it's feet, rather than on it's knees!

[W2Racing09]

The reason why I got hostile was your inability to reason with any of this. You've been told, multiple times, and by multiple people that it hasn't worked and it's been tried a bunch, actual racers are telling you why it's a bad idea. Fans with better grasp of dirt racing than you are telling you it's a bad idea. You're responding like a child with his fingers in his ears going "LA LA LA, I'm still right". That's why I suggested you don't really understand racing.

The only evidence you've suggested is an asphalt late model series (that's starting to falter, from what I understand) that went ALL crate and how wildly successful it is. I'm one of the very few people on this board that is as big an asphalt fan as I am a dirt fan, and I can tell you, the crossover between the two subsets is minimal. Very little of what's been successful in asphalt racing can be utilized in dirt racing, and vice versa. The racers and fanbases are polar opposites.

I was pretty rude in retrospect to get hostile and I apologize for that, but it's pretty clear you need to learn a little more about dirt racing. You'll have a deeper understanding of the sport and have better suggestions for realistic solutions to the problems that exist within it.

I don't think that stating my opinion and not giving into the opinion of others makes me a child. The fact is these are all opinions, everyone here is stating an opinion based on many variables. The CT525 Crate is in the rules at several tracks and the world has not imploded, the anti christ has not risen and the sun still comes up in the morning. This entire post is about getting more tracks to embrace the same rules that several already do.

How is the ACT Tour faltering? The home track (Thunder Road) gets good car counts and their tour races have full asphalt LM fields (32). The other track I am referring to (Oxford Plains) used to have ACT LM but decided to merge the ACT cars with the Pro Stocks and Late Models that are prevalent in the North East. They now have a division comprised of both open and crate motors and are running a consi on most regular nights. Keep in mind that consi is to set the last few spots of a 32 car field. I must say I'm not much of a fan of Asphalt racing ever since being introduced to dirt, but I think that money is still money and if something saves money in Asphalt racing it most likely transfers over on dirt or anywhere else.

I think the key to introducing crates is that not every car out there would be running the crate, which would create disparity. I don't hear many complain about the SLM division at Roaring Knob despite the fact that Mel Minnick raced there every week with a CT525.

I understand the opposing argument but I still believe that something has to be done. I don't want to see racing die whether "on its knees" or otherwise.

Thank you for your apology, going forward I will try not to seem so persistent about my ideas. I'm very used to many people saying no and offering no other suggestion in return.

[W2Racing09]

I keep reading how car counts are on the decline. For the most part the tracks that have been established in my area for as long as I can remember, the counts have been about the same for years, except for mods, which seem to increase every year.

Moler always pulls about 15-20 lates and mods each a week and run on Friday nights, which isn't the best night to run but with so many tracks around they can't really ask for much more than that.

Prp & Kc/Atomic get around 20 each of lates and pull close to 30 mods a week, and they are about hour and a half apart. Prp has a steel block class and they normally get 15-20 of them a week. Back before atomic opened back up Prp was getting 30+ lates a week.

I'm not sure what else a fan would want. I go to the races at a y of these tracks and normally see what's expected.

Florence has introduced the crate cars.....I've been there and watched them. They are about like watching a car rust. We slow the supers down to where thee crates can contend with them, you think tracks will survive? I don't, cuz I normally go walk around or whatever when the crates are racing. It's sad to say...it was like watching go kart racing.

I seen the 230 cars was mentioned at the world 100. I've been too every world 100 since 91 and seen most if not all of the huge car counts. Over half of those cars didn't need to be there. I knew guys who went and their sole reason for goin was to try and make cut of 120. If they done that, they were happy. It was just about the experience.

The car counts are not the same all over the country, the Midwest is one of the best places in the country for dirt racing. Check out the several nights last season that Hagerstown was in the low teens. Or the many times when tracks in WV had single digit counts in the SLM division. Whether or not the answer is crate engines something has to be done to change the fate of this division. I understand that people will always outspend others, but with constraints on the spending those with money can only outspend by taking the Josh Richards approach (six cars back in the shop) with no extraordinary results on the track.

The crates you are talking about seeing at Florence are not the crate motors this discussion is about. The CT525 is significantly more powerful than a 604 or 602 crate.

Lastly, do you think Eldora Speedway cared whether or not people were there just for the experience? The count was regularly near 200 cars and is now near 100 cars, that is a big decrease in profits. Back then people could at least afford to field a car that could barely keep up, now they can't even afford that, and it shows at races such as the World and Dream.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[zyoung25]

A crate engine is a crate engine to me. I wouldn't pay to watch either...regardless of what they are. It's like goin to the drag strip and watching cars with a throttle stop all night long.

I know eldora never cared....I'm pretty sure after time fuel prices went way up and those guys I mentioned realized it wasn't worth the haul, some still attend as fans. They knew going in they had no chance of winning before they left, some people don't understand what it meant to try that.

The world 100 has lost some it's luster since Earl faded out if the picture. It's one of those things you would've had to have been there...felt and seen. I don't care what rules you imply, we won't see 200+ cars at any dirt late model ever again imo. There hasn't been a 200+ car count there for over 10 years now to begin with. It's not like it just happen in a matter 2 or 3 years.

The day a crate late model wins the world 100....it would be hard for me to stay a fan....sorry. I'll turn into a sprint or mod fan.

[W2Racing09]

A crate engine is a crate engine to me. I wouldn't pay to watch either...regardless of what they are. It's like goin to the drag strip and watching cars with a throttle stop all night long.

I know eldora never cared....I'm pretty sure after time fuel prices went way up and those guys I mentioned realized it wasn't worth the haul, some still attend as fans. They knew going in they had no chance of winning before they left, some people don't understand what it meant to try that.

The world 100 has lost some it's luster since Earl faded out if the picture. It's one of those things you would've had to have been there...felt and seen. I don't care what rules you imply, we won't see 200+ cars at any dirt late model ever again imo. There hasn't been a 200+ car count there for over 10 years now to begin with. It's not like it just happen in a matter 2 or 3 years.

The day a crate late model wins the world 100....it would be hard for me to stay a fan....sorry. I'll turn into a sprint or mod fan.

I'm saying from the tracks standpoint, to tell me they were happy to lose 100 cars (Average of 5 people per car) you are looking at $50,000 or more in income gone over the course of ten years.

Also, Sprint cars are not open, they are for the most part restricted to 410CI -- isn't that what everyone is fighting? Against restricting the open nature of Super Late Models?

I certainly don't think restricting cubes is the answer, but it is a limiting factor which fans of SLM racing do not seem to want, so why is it okay for sprint cars?

Thanks,
Jeff.

[zyoung25]

What eldora lost in those cars they gained in fans, which is another thing you would've had to have been there and seen.

Even if anyone did restrict the cubes....Any smart engine guy can take smaller cubic inch motor and push the same numbers as a bigger cubic engine, it just won't live as long, if I had a penny for every time my ol man said that...I'd have dump truck full of them. A limit on the cubic inch isn't goin to change much as far as cost as you think it would.

I just know as long as I do my part as a fan an continue to support dirt racing I'm general. Either it be buying a track or drivers shirt, I know I'm doing all I can to keep the sport alive. I don't see really what is wrong with what we have honestly. I just don't feel like leveling the playing field for a certain kind of car is going to make anything better.

[swartzman]

The SUPR series has had a spec parts list for years.. They seem to make it work..

[W2Racing09]

What eldora lost in those cars they gained in fans, which is another thing you would've had to have been there and seen.

Even if anyone did restrict the cubes....Any smart engine guy can take smaller cubic inch motor and push the same numbers as a bigger cubic engine, it just won't live as long, if I had a penny for every time my ol man said that...I'd have dump truck full of them. A limit on the cubic inch isn't goin to change much as far as cost as you think it would.

I just know as long as I do my part as a fan an continue to support dirt racing I'm general. Either it be buying a track or drivers shirt, I know I'm doing all I can to keep the sport alive. I don't see really what is wrong with what we have honestly. I just don't feel like leveling the playing field for a certain kind of car is going to make anything better.

I wasn't saying to restrict cubes at all, I think that is a horrible way to do things. Look at the cost of sprint motors as a result. In many cases they cost significantly more than an SLM motor and they are often times less powerful. I was just wondering why you as a fan of the open SLMs would migrate to watching Sprint (where they restrict various things) if things started to be restricted in the SLM.

Thanks,
Jeff.