So, SAS-LUCAS-WoO, we're all concerned about $Expensive$ Shock Systems, What about...

[W2Racing09]

If I remember correctly, the races mostly paid 3k to win. Most of the races were in Kentucky and Tennessee, and I'm not sure what you mean by who did they race against. That question doesn't even make sense.

I'm not sure why you have been so hostile, I've always respected your posts. Especially earlier in this post accusing me of not knowing how racing works. That was one of the most ignorant things I've ever read on this board. I don't agree with Huck on a lot of things but I don't discount the fact that he knows a lot about racing. The same for you, I don't always agree with you but you seem to have a pretty good grasp of what is going on. I'm not insulting anyone in this post, I'm stating my opinion on the matter, clearly there are a bunch who agree with it and there are a bunch who don't. Everyone else has been for the most part respectful, you are the last person I expected to start having problems with.

Who did they race against, IE: What tracks, series, etc. did they race against? Did they schedule around the other series or tracks?

That is the first step to starting a new series, if you run against other series and track it will be hard to build your car count. You are asking them to take a chance, stop doing what they are and have been doing and come race with you instead.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[hucktyson]

Basically what this toss off wants is Lucas and WOO to allow the 525 and give it enough breaks to
Make it win the majority of the races inspite of the talent disparity between the guys that will be in the 525 cars. He wants to figure a way to slow the real super down enough to make a 525 competitive under all conditions to essentially give guys no choice but to run it. This is a guy who doesn't race under current rules and wouldn't race under his socialist Utopia rules either . He refuses to hear that a lot of the local guys only spend a couple grand a year maintaining their engines . He sticks to the narritive that all racers use RY45 based engines and it's impossible to win under any condition without and RY45 based engine. Just ignore the fact that an RY 45 based engine didnt win either major touring title last year. The tracks can only hold soo much power and the 13/10chevy /d3 ford stuff makes plenty of power to win anywhere. But hey don't let facts get in the way of the W2 fantasy

[W2Racing09]

Basically what this toss off wants is Lucas and WOO to allow the 525 and give it enough breaks to
Make it win the majority of the races inspite of the talent disparity between the guys that will be in the 525 cars. He wants to figure a way to slow the real super down enough to make a 525 competitive under all conditions to essentially give guys no choice but to run it. This is a guy who doesn't race under current rules and wouldn't race under his socialist Utopia rules either . He refuses to hear that a lot of the local guys only spend a couple grand a year maintaining their engines . He sticks to the narritive that all racers use RY45 based engines and it's impossible to win under any condition without and RY45 based engine. Just ignore the fact that an RY 45 based engine didnt win either major touring title last year. The tracks can only hold soo much power and the 13/10chevy /d3 ford stuff makes plenty of power to win anywhere. But hey don't let facts get in the way of the W2 fantasy

I made the only correct part of your post bold.

I certainly don't want the CT525 to be given so many breaks that it wins the majority of the races. As I said previously in this thread if the CT525 were made even close to competitive in every condition (as the Open motors are) that would be fine. Any shortfalls could be made up by a good driver. Currently if you put Josh Richards or Scott Bloomquist in a CT525 based car they would be lucky to win the non-qualifiers race. I would like the CT525 to be competitive enough that if Josh Richards and Bloomquist were running one they would still be a threat to win as they are now.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[bb14]

Why don't Chevy build a competitive crate to compete. The reason is cost. The 454r has an iron block and costs $25k. I would much rather have a used aluminum motor that is cheaper to repair and most certainly more reliable in racing conditions.

CJ will build you a modified 525 based engine rather cheap but it also has an iron block so your repair and percentages suffer.

Jeff I understand your logic but not many racers like the crate concept. Racing is expensive. Late models are really expensive. Just a fact. 525 is a limited engine at best. It is competitive due to the percentage advantage it gives due to the aluminum.

I used to think the same way but I have watched crates kill the sport in the south.

[fastford]

Basically what this toss off wants is Lucas and WOO to allow the 525 and give it enough breaks to
Make it win the majority of the races inspite of the talent disparity between the guys that will be in the 525 cars. He wants to figure a way to slow the real super down enough to make a 525 competitive under all conditions to essentially give guys no choice but to run it. This is a guy who doesn't race under current rules and wouldn't race under his socialist Utopia rules either . He refuses to hear that a lot of the local guys only spend a couple grand a year maintaining their engines . He sticks to the narritive that all racers use RY45 based engines and it's impossible to win under any condition without and RY45 based engine. Just ignore the fact that an RY 45 based engine didnt win either major touring title last year. The tracks can only hold soo much power and the 13/10chevy /d3 ford stuff makes plenty of power to win anywhere. But hey don't let facts get in the way of the W2 fantasy

best post yet huck!!!!

[fastford]

How does experience racing on dirt help with this discussion at all? Isn't it the drivers who repeatedly outspend themselves over and over and over in every division (from UCARS to Sprint Cars on dirt, asphalt and whatever other surface can be raced on). How is racing on asphalt so different from dirt from an economic stand point? Asphalt SLM car counts went down in my home state, so Crates were introduced. Asphalt car counts went up, asphalt car counts are still up.

The SLM division has one weekly track in the state and gets decent (although declining) car counts. They get a good amount of fans weekly. The rest of the tracks in the area have either gone full crate (ACT Tour) or a mixture of built and crate motors and the car counts have gone up at all tracks. I can document that if you need me to, although I expect that when confronted with proof and logic you will still disagree.

Thanks,
Jeff.

sorry, ive already good dayed you.....

[W2Racing09]

sorry, ive already good dayed you.....

I won't shed any tears, I promise.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

Why don't Chevy build a competitive crate to compete. The reason is cost. The 454r has an iron block and costs $25k. I would much rather have a used aluminum motor that is cheaper to repair and most certainly more reliable in racing conditions.

CJ will build you a modified 525 based engine rather cheap but it also has an iron block so your repair and percentages suffer.

Jeff I understand your logic but not many racers like the crate concept. Racing is expensive. Late models are really expensive. Just a fact. 525 is a limited engine at best. It is competitive due to the percentage advantage it gives due to the aluminum.

I used to think the same way but I have watched crates kill the sport in the south.

This is a completely legit question, because I do not live in the South and never have.

How do you think Crates have killed racing in the South?

In response to your post, I understand we are coming from totally different sides of the country and I understand drivers generally rebel against this stuff. But the issue is not that I have a secret agenda or that I want to get a CT525. The main problem is that myself and many others want to continue being able to see the SLM division. On its current path I don't think it will be around much longer, especially not weekly. I have several local tracks running them weekly and I don't ever consider going anywhere else on a free weekend. When the division dies I might not go to the races as much, and right now I'm hitting 45 or so races every year. How many more will stop going completely?

If we as a sport were gaining fans, cars and sponsors on a regular basis I would drop this idea in a minute. But the bottom line is, we have seen how our current rules work to further that agenda, and it isn't good. Why so resistant to try something new? Especially something that would not have any effect on those already racing in the division. Just giving the option for the CT525 with a weight break and big spoiler. If it works and people start using it then great, if it does not then okay nothing changed.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Brian Gray]

bottom line the 525 should be allowed as an option without breaks and without having to meet the sealed motor requirement.

its a cheaper alternative and a good starting point but i disagree with giving crate advantages and i disagree with them having to goto "special builders" to be sealed.

[bb14]

There are no super tracks running weekly in SC, one in NC, one in GA. East TN used to be a hotbed. I don't think they have anymore either. When crates started some new people bought them but once they found out how much it cost to operate a late model most quit. Some of the super guys dropped back too. The fans didn't like the racing and quit going. It is not the same show. Now that the tracks didn't have the people the crate purses were cut. More racers quit. If the tracks would have never done away with limiteds we may still have late models. I wish the crates and limiteds would be combined including 525. We do have a series of limiteds and the 525 is competitive.

[j1s]

Jeff,

It is plan and simple racing is expensive; always has been and always will be. I grew up in the Georgia, but now I live in Maryland and attend many of the same tracks that you do. My friends in the Georgia feel that late model racing in the south ( Georgia and Alabama mostly) is lame due to the weight break and spoiler rules. Supers in the south are thing of the past and it is very sad. In the northern parts of the country we a very fortunate to have REAL supers, and watering the product with weight breaks and bat wings will not help anyone... I mean anyone; promoters, track owners, fans, team owners or drivers. I take that back... one group of folks would win General Motors stock holders. The current engine rules fro Supers are very sufficient, if racers want to spend dumb money on motors... then let 'em. I happen to believe the shock rules are good for now... I would not be surprised if the rules a revisited in the next off season. Tires... we all saw what over limited tire rule does for the quality of racing in East Bay. Tires rules should offer three options... soft, medium, hard. If a team wants to race Crate/Limited/525 against open engine that's fine by me as long as there are no weight breaks and bat wings.

[W2Racing09]

Racing won't always be expensive, it will eventually just not be.

Even Bloomquist said he had a hard time financially last year... After winning more money than anyone else. I fail to understand why people think there is not a problem here.

Its not about me wanting to buy a CT525 and being upset that the rules don't make it competitive at all. It is about me wanting to watch my favorite sport for the rest of my life. If I wanted to get an SLM I couldn't afford to, and my wife and I together make well over six figures per year. Look how far we have gotten away from the days when the neighborhood mechanic was out on the track racing in the SLM division. You have to be a business Owner, CEO, Real Estate Developer, etc. or know someone who fits that criteria to even have a chance in most regions. It wasn't always like that, and back when it wasn't racing was much healthier than it is today.

[huskerdirt]

Racing is expensive...... What class you race and what your financial means are determines how expensive it really is. I could maybe afford to put a hobby stock together. Any class above that absolutely not as I would rather not take food off the table just to race.

Some racers are stupid with there money. They would rather drive half way across the country to race against stiffer competition for 10k to win. Rather than run with the local/regional guys for 3k and 5k in there backyard. That sort of thinking is why guys eventually sell out and b!tch about the cost the racing. They do it to themselves.

[j1s]

If I wanted to get an SLM I couldn't afford to, and my wife and I together make well over six figures per year.

You make at least a million dollars a year and can't afford a late model? You need to learn how to budget... Just kidding. I know you don't make a million a year (cause you work for the government), but the sentence reads like you do. "Over six figures" means more than 999,999, so you actually make "well into" the six figure range, but truthfully that is not a lot of money in the mid-Atlantic region... its just middle class. Guess what? Middle class folks with a mortgage payments don't get to race Super Late Models, they get to watch Super Late Models with the lower income folks. Like many people I could afford a Super Late Model if having a race car was the only thing I cared about, but like most folks racing is something I like a whole lot, but I am not willing to put every dime of my finances on the line just so I can race. On another note, I will have a Crate late model within the next few years, and thankfully I will not have to race against Open motors, because someone was smart enough to create an affordable alternative for middle class dummies like me.

[W2Racing09]

You make at least a million dollars a year and can't afford a late model? You need to learn how to budget... Just kidding. I know you don't make a million a year (cause you work for the government), but the sentence reads like you do. "Over six figures" means more than 999,999, so you actually make "well into" the six figure range, but truthfully that is not a lot of money in the mid-Atlantic region... its just middle class. Guess what? Middle class folks with a mortgage payments don't get to race Super Late Models, they get to watch Super Late Models with the lower income folks. Like many people I could afford a Super Late Model if having a race car was the only thing I cared about, but like most folks racing is something I like a whole lot, but I am not willing to put every dime of my finances on the line just so I can race. On another note, I will have a Crate late model within the next few years, and thankfully I will not have to race against Open motors, because someone was smart enough to create an affordable alternative for middle class dummies like me.

My apologies, well over $100k.

I grew up cheering for drivers who could have been middle class or lower even. My neighbor growing up was a mechanic who raced a Late Model. My uncle who deliveried Pepsi products to grocery stores used to race Asphalt Late Models all over the state of Maine. Ten years ago he raced against 25 other people like him every week. Now the track is closed but the last season they ran full time (2012) they averaged 7 cars.

The cost has become too much for those in the Middle Class as you say, but it wasn't always that way. I think that is the biggest problem this sport is facing, it needs be addressed or the sport will fail. If everyone in the Middle Class gets a crate car like you and I both plan to do then it won't solve the problem, it will just give us solid CLM counts and no SLM division to keep the fans coming through the gate.

If everyone is so against Crates then tell me another way to get an engine that can keep up with the Pro Power, Cornett, Durham, etc. engines for under $15k.

Thanks,
Jeff.