crate cheating and Mullins

[GavinHunyady187]

Ive dyno crates that had ten minutes on them and dyno them again at 30,60,120 nights, when is this break in you speak of over? Ive never had one gain hp they've all been within 5 of the first time I dyno them.

That's awesome! I suppose you know this, but... depending on where you bought it, it may have already had the break-in done. I don't know what you tell you, but I know in production engines there is a pretty big variation prior to break-in (which is why it exists). I think Karl's and Freisen both sell engines that have run the break in, but IDK for sure. There is a whole industry for the latemodel crowd on tar and dirt for "blueprinting" engines based on this variation though.

Calibrating the dyno, and adjusting the correction factor is a big deal. Probably others have more experience but, I've never seen a racing shop do it right. Mostly because they can't do it right due to the climate control in their facilities. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors in that game, and not all of it is intentional.

Section 5.1 of SAE J1349 explains that the correction factor is applicable for air temperatures between 15C-35C, with a barometer of 900 to 1050mb, in "dry" air <-- meaning anywhere in the midwest requires A/C in the cell, which I've never seen at a "race" shop.

Your statement is the reason why the crate is a good thing, 120 nights with that level of consistency... and people think its a bad thing? I have to think that if you're seeing results that consistent that you ARE doing this correctly, or you're incredibly lucky, but either way I'm sure you can understand why its tough to trust ANY long term testing results at face value.

I should have mentioned that I don't necessarily trust the rating on mine that I got from Karl's for the same reason, and that 400hp from GM is likely underrated to ensure that it never tests below advertised... and that is probably a LOT bigger difference than any other factor.

Did you ever sell that 406? I'll be out your way in January, I'd be interested in picking it up if you still have it.

[stock car driver]

Just some food for thought

1. the 400hp advertised output is a brand new (green) engine, on pump gas, the break-in cycle alone will increase output
2. after the GM spec break-in cycle mine made 467hp on non-oxygenated, unleaded racegas, alky should make more
3. intentionally or not, if care isnt taken to set the correction factor on a dyno to the SAE spec, you can get all sorts of misleading numbers (which is why most people only compare A-to-B on the same test day)

Ive dyno crates that had ten minutes on them and dyno them again at 30,60,120 nights, when is this break in you speak of over? Ive never had one gain hp they've all been within 5 of the first time I dyno them.

[brownIdriller]

[QUOTE=calverton;2068518]iI GEUSS P AND G ING A MOTOR IS NOT TECH i GUESS CHECKING THE CAR B IS NOT TECH OR CHECKING THE SUSPENSION IS WHAT ITS SUPPOSE TOBE LIKE NO CHAIN LIMITERS THEY CAME UP WITH WHICH IS PURE GARBAGE[/

= BBbbbrrrrtttttt!!

[GavinHunyady187]

One of our region's IMCA licensed rebuilders currently has a rebuilt 604 for sale. On alcohol it dynoed 492 HP, 489 torque. Pretty much says it all to the guy who buys a new stock one from GM. The winning 602s are just as bad in the Sport or B Mods.

Just some food for thought

1. the 400hp advertised output is a brand new (green) engine, on pump gas, the break-in cycle alone will increase output
2. after the GM spec break-in cycle mine made 467hp on non-oxygenated, unleaded racegas, alky should make more
3. intentionally or not, if care isnt taken to set the correction factor on a dyno to the SAE spec, you can get all sorts of misleading numbers (which is why most people only compare A-to-B on the same test day)

[calverton]

Just because someone has the title of "official" or "inspector" and walks around a car doesn't mean they inspected it. You would know this if you actually did something other than cruise the concession stand. It's jokers like you that make it hard to have an intelligent conversation about the actual state of modified racing. I can tell you that this board was a much better place when you and your buddy were not allowed to post. Just my opinion as a car owner and driver. Don't bother asking for any details either. I'm following your lead on that one.

iI GEUSS P AND G ING A MOTOR IS NOT TECH i GUESS CHECKING THE CAR B IS NOT TECH OR CHECKING THE SUSPENSION IS WHAT ITS SUPPOSE TOBE LIKE NO CHAIN LIMITERS THEY CAME UP WITH WHICH IS PURE GARBAGE

[modracr41]

Good point blueracer11. Up here in Minnesota, IMCA does a pretty good job of inspecting the cars. They will check the seals on a crate motor, and I've even seen them pull the oil pan to check for illegal parts, etc. It's a very random thing, so it is possible you could run a cheated up crate and get by with it here and there, but it would eventually catch up with you. The difference is that the officials at our track have to go to school to learn the correct way to "tech" the cars. IMCA tracks agree to this as a condition of IMCA sanctioning. It does help but the truth of the matter is it varies from track to track depending on who's winning, and what the promoter wants you to look at.

[blueracer11]

tech wise most certainly every big show locally and every sat. night was it fair of who they teched everyweek he11 no but they did tech

Just because someone has the title of "official" or "inspector" and walks around a car doesn't mean they inspected it. You would know this if you actually did something other than cruise the concession stand. It's jokers like you that make it hard to have an intelligent conversation about the actual state of modified racing. I can tell you that this board was a much better place when you and your buddy were not allowed to post. Just my opinion as a car owner and driver. Don't bother asking for any details either. I'm following your lead on that one.

[blackdoom14]

This coming from a guy that doesn't bother showing up at the track

You just can't help yourself can you? You post something that's almost literate, then you follow with more of your BS. It's no wonder you've been banned more times than anyone else on this board. You can't fix what you have.

[brownIdriller]

This coming from a guy that doesn't bother showing up at the track

= Bbbrrrtttttttt!

[calverton]

This coming from a guy that doesn't bother showing up at the track

[rustymod]

rustymod, in fairness to calverton I think ( but am never quite sure with him) he was referring to the IMCA engine I mentioned. I'm west coast and no UMP out here. But tech is still a joke. The only way crates will ever be what they were intended is for everyone to buy their engine from a GM dealer at the track and install it there and return it at the end of the night....and we all know that ain't remotely likely.

if IMCA is not checking very well and they tech more than UMP ever has or will then that spells is out and tells all that as long as you have the seals you can do a whole lot of work to the engine. I know I have heard of a crate that was turning 8k, they tried switching the MSD box and blaming the ignition and let racer continue to run. crates are getting away with whatever they want it seems. as long as it has seals apparently anything goes.

[calverton]

Exactly plus some drivers have 10 15 20 years exp at any sanction I hope they can win often

[over4T]

rustymod, in fairness to calverton I think ( but am never quite sure with him) he was referring to the IMCA engine I mentioned. I'm west coast and no UMP out here. But tech is still a joke. The only way crates will ever be what they were intended is for everyone to buy their engine from a GM dealer at the track and install it there and return it at the end of the night....and we all know that ain't remotely likely.

[rustymod]

That is a crock how can he be a licensed rebuilder getting those numbers what is the point of having a crate if its dynoed way above the the none rebuild ones are

wait a minute Lite Inn you said that UMP is teching crates so why are they not checking this ????? Why havent they caught this ?

Mullins had it right crate seals are just a license to cheat.

[rustymod]

Two part question..what exactly is done to the crate to cheat it up? And how easy is it to tell its been cheated are any getting teched and they are missing the signs or is UMP just not checking them at all?

you said it. UMP is not doing anything to tech crates, pretty much they will verify its a crate at best in bmods and then let you go. most times there is zero engine tech for crates.

What are they doing to crates...well as Mullins says the sky is the limit, cam changes, increased stroke too.