602 cooling lines question.

[rubbinsracin]

Never seen a crate motor plumbed like that at our track. What kind of power difference are we talking brad?

[brad hibbard]

Never seen a crate motor plumbed like that at our track. What kind of power difference are we talking brad?

this whole topic has made me think a bit-----just adding a water line or bypass is not going to add power but in some cases will even out temperatures to where timing or fuel curves can be changed to be a benefit

I don't think this simple bypass will be significant enough to be able to adjust timing but it might help with some cooling issues

I can't believe I have missed that in the manual but will seriously look into the effects and benefits

thanks for starting this topic ---its things like this that help us all get a little bit better.

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[DaveBauerSS6]

The GM tech said it was to release air trapped by the design of the heads. Not sure if there is a performance improvement.
Will try JR Motorsports on their thoughts.

[DaveBauerSS6]

JR feedback: Talked to two guys, one didn't know and refereed me to another that said they don't see a need for it. Not much depth in the answer???

[dynoman14]

Dave Bauer,
Sounds like you got some great feedback from a lot of experts on here but after reading 2 pages of BS humming and hawing around the question....

Here is the answer to your original question;

On most water pumps the top hole is an inlet designed to be used from a purge / surge container for overflow recirculation or so you can run a high pressure water system. In that case you will have to purchase a water pump capable of pumping water at high pressures ( 25-50psi ) and weld your radiator outlet closed or shim up a cap to whatever PSI you want it to pop to the purge/surge container, at that point instead of blowing coolant all over the track you simply suck it back in the top of the water pump, going on to live another day, saving your engine and not wrecking 1/2 the field wrecking in your own spillage.

If you need to learn about the system aeroquip has had a schematic of the deal in their catalog for about 10 years now. Not sure about the web-site.

If you pick up physics book, or look on the internet you can calculate the temperature at which water boils with a simple formula. At high pressure it is a lot more than 212F*. If you are smart enough to pursue this further you might even find some information about detergent salts that can raise the boiling point of water another 50-100* so with pressure and some additives you can really run hot without blowing up.

There is a real life warning, failure to heed the excess pressure of such a system will result in death and it happened to a NASCAR teams crew member when he tapped a water re-fill can into the high pressure side of the system instead of the low pressure side. 99.9% of the racing world would never see this as you would not have a Live / active re-fill system on your cars.

So with that said, Chevy engines have always had a problem with water boilling between the cylinders and guess what they are the lowest pressure areas in the engine so that is why you have to use extra pressure to get rid of that. I know people will say the temp gauge is only reading 200 but the water between the two middle cylinders is more like 100* hotter, if you like you can mount a sending unit there and find out what it is. Trust me, it is.

To resolve this issue about 20-25 years ago I started running lines off the sides of the water pump to the center of the cylinder heads either on the intake side or the exhaust side, whichever is easier. In the case of a crate engine you are not supposed to drill and tap and all of that mumbo jumbo so all you have to do is be a little smarter than the piece you are working on and put a -6 or -8 fitting in the side block drains and run pressurized water into those locations off both sides of the water pump. Now if you spend more than $49 on a water pump you might see that racing water pumps come with pre-tapped fittings / flanges on the top and on each side of the water pump. They are there for a specific reason, and Edelbrock, Stewart and Adams did not put them there just cause they had extra time and needed holes to drill and tap...

And that my genius friends is how you cool a crate engine down enough to run an electric fan and save 26RWHP @ 6500 and 42RWHP@7500rpm's of drag off that antique 4 bladed steel piece of crap I see running on 99% of the crate cars I see.

If you don't believe it why do you think (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)ie Coleman invented a fan blade by-pass for qualifying. Oops hope I didn't offend any of you by name dropping cause I know it gets folks all hot and bothered. I did some of the testing for him 15 years ago on my 2-BBL late models.

Maybe working on that a while will shut up all of the experts who have been telling me for the last couple years that dirt engines can't run electric fans, BLA,BLA,BLA. You might want to take a closer look at some of the Fast Supers in your area and see who is running electric fans, it is more like 40-50RWHP on one of those engines.

If I can get my old and 1/2 blind webmaster off his butt I'll see if he can post some pictures for me.

Stick around another couple of years and I might disclose how you can run 200psi oil pressure with a 50psi pump and still have the gauge read 50psi, yet another simple physics problem to overcome and all you experts say you cant turn a crate 7500rpms...pick up a fluid transfer or fluid dynamics book and read a little and pay special attention to the chapter on differential pressures, if it ain't got a chapter on that you don't have the right book.

Yea c'mon

[stockcar5]

dyno has been getting laughed off of the speedtalk forum lately. i figured it was only a matter of time before he slithered back over here.

dyno tried to tell a guy over there that he goes into hendricks all the time and they let him scour through the parts room..lol. little did he know he tried telling that to a guy that has work at hendricks for 15 years...opps...lol.

yea c'mon

[dynoman14]

Looks to me like the guy didn't know much about a water pump, the associated ports for in and out on water, and also not much about cooling a SBC Crate as his buddy just got this one.

If the answer had more information than you could handle or process or wanted to know about, skip over it. Like I said if you don't like my posts or threads tune out.

As for Speedtalk, not so sure anybody over there has called me out, kinda funny when I mentioned playing poker with his boss on a regular basis he kinda never answered me back. He wanted to know why he had not met me and I guess the folks I was dealing with might have been above his pay grade. no biggie. My feelings are not hurt cause he don't know me. Who the hell is he and what does he do? Did he ever say??? He might be a parts washer for all I know, not downing the job as they make $50-60K a year as it is a very important job in tear down and cleaning. Next job is usually engine builder apprentice.

There are over 2000 employees at HMS and probably another couple hundred at different off site shops that perform testing and manufacturing for different parts of the company. This dude was one of the many I never met because I only dealt with at most 10 people at HMS during my 25 years of dealing with them. The first person I ever met there was a driver for the team and his name was Rick Hendrick, my first visit there I sold him $2500 worth of new style one piece pushrods that were big OD, thin wall and swedged with heat treated tips. My comission was 25% of what I sold. I had my 89 Suburban full to the roof with them at at the end of the week after visiting 27 CUP engine builders, I had sold $67,000.00 worth of pushrods. They were the new thing and Bill Nolan was making them out of his house in FLA after being let go by Crane Cams. Nolan told me to keep $20K and bring him down the rest. It was 100% cash business and that is the way it was back then.

Shortly after that I started selling rocker arms for Bill and his partner Larry. Rick bought about $30K worth of them first order and it was on like Donkey Kong. The rocker arm shop became known as T&D and HMS still uses them by the thousand.

I loved it cause it was like the old gold mining days, nobody to compete against and I had a ton of sales contacts. I made about $50-60K commission a month for probably for 5 years and sold the business to another guy and he ran it into the ground. BSR, CV, RDI and a bunch of others then came along and sucked up all the accounts.

I bought a house, SuperFlow Bench and Superflow Chassis dyno and the rest is history.

Now all I do is sit around an buy & sell Bank Of America stock 30-40 times a day before lunch and then play with crate engines and whatever else I want to do. I have 11-604's in the floor to get finished in the next month so I will be busy for a while.

[stockcar5]

getting called out by mike jones of jones cams on your crate camshaft/rpm theories was funny as well!

[dirty white boy]

if ya cant impress them with talent,..baffle them with bull chit....

[sj valley dave]

I know what you mean Stockcar5...there are a few guys over there that listen and seem to really think about Dyno's theories, but there are more than twice as many that hammer him for the non ending name dropping, exaggerated claims, etc...I have said before, he will bring up a few things that will make you think, ummhh, interesting, but for the most part...

[DaveBauerSS6]

I know what you mean Stockcar5...there are a few guys over there that listen and seem to really think about Dyno's theories, but there are more than twice as many that hammer him for the non ending name dropping, exaggerated claims, etc...I have said before, he will bring up a few things that will make you think, ummhh, interesting, but for the most part...

I agree..

DYNO: My question stands the same. You are thought provoking and I bet if I redirect your energy, we can get a answer that you and I could explain to our buddies. At this point I still have questions and since I am running low on energy, I need your help.

I understand running lines out of the drains. That will not solve the problem of air being trapped below the pass cylinder head. I do know the purpose of the line is to vent air , not water flow.

What I don't know is, can air be vented from the passage below the outlet of the pass of the water pump. Water is flowing out of the water pump, air is being trapped below the cylinder head which is above the pump output. The air would have to go down and around the water flowing to the block to vent to the intake.

Next question, air transfers the the lower passage in the pump into the bowl area of the pump. The recommended placement is the fitting just above the lower radiator hose. That is on the side of the bowl. Seems the fitting should be on top of the pump for the best chance of getting more air????? GM chose this side placement, why. I know thier answer, but I'm not convinced.

[drtrkr244]

Hey, Dynoman sHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Don't let all of the secrets out! I like to have an advantage every now and then. LOL

You've certainly riled up the peanut gallery tonight.

Me and Stan(our buddy from Holley) are laughing all the way to the bank1

[dynoman14]

I am not afraid of getting called out by anybody on crate questions or testing because my claims are backed by UMP, Nesmith and Fastrak wins.

Maybe you should check your facts there on that 604 Crate Cam thread; a couple posts later where I asked him to explain how his cam would check the same as stock on the cam doctor and still make +15 more HP. Still no answer to that.

One of my engine customers bought one of the cams he is talking about and we Cam Doctored it at Darrell Gabriels' and it was illegal on lift and duration and also the easiest measurement of all it had a reduced base circle.

Is that simple enough for you to understand???

Mikes questions to me were about cam loft with a hydraulic lifter, if you are not smart enough to figure that out maybe you might should find another business other than selling cheated up cams to racers as Fastrak legal cams.

I still see the peanut gallery here is composed of the same folks. It's a shame they are street stock racers and most have never sat in a Late-Model or Crate Late.

Dave B,
As you will note, my quote referenced as purge surge tank that returns water into the top of the water pump from an overflow container mounted above the level of the cylinder heads. That is for most cases, in the case of using Hi-pressure water pumps air pockets or bubbles are usually not present due to the operation of the system. If you fill the top radiator hose until water comes out of the radiator and then burp the system once or twice after initial start-up you should never get air into the system unless you over heat and suck air back in.

Thanks 244,
I know you guys are rolling...I guess them 20 year old issues are not so easy for most of the lemmings to google search and find. If you want to learn about water pumps call Howard Stewart and he'll tell you. Ooops does that count as name dropping. When I was a Regional Manager for Domino's I used to take him pizza's to his place in High Point. That and a couple C notes would usually get me a master carton of 12 pumps.

[dirty white boy]

lolololololololol,..dayuumm!

[DaveBauerSS6]

I am not afraid of getting called out by anybody on crate questions or testing because my claims are backed by UMP, Nesmith and Fastrak wins.

Maybe you should check your facts there on that 604 Crate Cam thread; a couple posts later where I asked him to explain how his cam would check the same as stock on the cam doctor and still make +15 more HP. Still no answer to that.

One of my engine customers bought one of the cams he is talking about and we Cam Doctored it at Darrell Gabriels' and it was illegal on lift and duration and also the easiest measurement of all it had a reduced base circle.

Is that simple enough for you to understand???

Mikes questions to me were about cam loft with a hydraulic lifter, if you are not smart enough to figure that out maybe you might should find another business other than selling cheated up cams to racers as Fastrak legal cams.

I still see the peanut gallery here is composed of the same folks. It's a shame they are street stock racers and most have never sat in a Late-Model or Crate Late.

Dave B,
As you will note, my quote referenced as purge surge tank that returns water into the top of the water pump from an overflow container mounted above the level of the cylinder heads. That is for most cases, in the case of using Hi-pressure water pumps air pockets or bubbles are usually not present due to the operation of the system. If you fill the top radiator hose until water comes out of the radiator and then burp the system once or twice after initial start-up you should never get air into the system unless you over heat and suck air back in.

Thanks 244,
I know you guys are rolling...I guess them 20 year old issues are not so easy for most of the lemmings to google search and find. If you want to learn about water pumps call Howard Stewart and he'll tell you. Ooops does that count as name dropping. When I was a Regional Manager for Domino's I used to take him pizza's to his place in High Point. That and a couple C notes would usually get me a master carton of 12 pumps.

Dyno, Thanks for the response. You used two words in your reply that MAY give me trouble.

Usually, if you used the word Eliminated I would feel better.
Should, if you used Will I would feel better.

I understand there are no guarantees in racing. I am at a loss as to why GM didn't recommend a high pressure remote system, instead of the by pass line. My guess is the head blocks the normal path of bleeding air .

Would it be possible for you to ask Howard his views on this??? Looks like there are alot of questions.

Thanks, Dave