Concussions, Full Containments Seats and a bouncing ball.

[Matt49]

I have to disagree completely with the basketball analogy. From a pure physics standpoint, a basketball bouncing off of any hard surface is a very elastic collision. Helmets and the padding in the full containment seats are specifically designed to absorb the energy of a collision and hence make it an inelastic collision.
I've been using a full containment seat since I started driving a late model and it's the best money I've ever spent. I've been in some VERY hard collisions and I'm a believer that the seat protected me from excessive upper body and head movement that could have lead to rib, back, neck, etc. injuries.
On the HANS deal, I'll say this: I read somewhere that you can sustain a basilar skull fracture at 40 MPH head on impact. Whether it is true or not, it lead me to buying a HANS. The only reason I stopped wearing last season (after only wearing it twice) was because I came in after hot laps to find my helmet wasn't strapped. Just one of those deals where adding new things to a routine caused me to miss something very basic. Freaked me out so I put it back in the box until I have time to practice the new strapping-in routine associated with wearing it. Which will certainly be done this off-season.

[Renegade Cust Susp]

This this this

i can say this with out a doubt (i really forgot about an accident my son was in)
he was in a race running 3rd tucked under the 2nd place car that was trying to pass a lapped car that was trying to get in the infield, he didn't see it because the 2nd place car was tucked under the lapped car(all of this was at the middle to the end of the straightaway) the lapped car rubbed 2nd place car and drove into the rr of our car turning him straight into the wall head on and then slapped the left side very hard(i would have thought it would have atleast startled him,but he was pretty upset too) I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT IT SAVED MY SONS LIFE, AND HE HAS SAID THAT HE WILL NOT RUN WITH OUT ONE,he was offered to drive a car one time but wouldn't because it didn't have a containment seat,he put his seat in and then he drove it for a few weeks
i think the biggest problem here is until the last year or two none of the cars really have enough room in them for the seat and hans,PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ENOUGH ROOM FROM THE TOP OF YOUR HELMET TO THE BOTTOM OF THE ROLL BARS,WE LIKE ATLEAST 2" MINIMUM
racing is dangerous no doubt,but not as dangerous as not taking the precautions
as always guys please be as safe as you can,we can replace the cars but we can't replace you as a person,father,wife,son, daughter,or friend,ask mr smooth about a containment seat,i think he runs one now too,after the same kind of accident

I could not agree with this more, driver to cage clearance is hardly addressed in the open wheel stuff and even less so in the stock car stuff, that is why we always run tall cage cars sprint car and modifiers and after conversations with Bryan at Bandit he raised the halo in ALL of his cars from what they used to be.

[grt74]

i know there is some testing going on,I'm hoping to know more after pri (after i talk to some of my friends that test vehicle safety equipment,there some very sharp guys,and they have access to test a ton of different ways),someone has told me that the basketball effect is real but they have tested memory form instead of impact foam but i haven't heard any results yet,when you look at a crash (side impact) in slow motion the helmet flexes causing the basketball effect,of coarse its not exactly the same but you can get the idea,but we can all agree that a concussion is better than the alternative, BUT IM NOT CLAIMING TO BE ANY KIND OF EXPERT ON THIS,because of the liability world

[collateralDamage]

In all athletics, racing included, concussions have increased dramatically over the last 15 years (60% more?). It is speculated that this is a result of increased awareness and early diagnosis and not that there are actually more concussions.

Same goes for racing fatalities? Are there more fatalities in racing today or are we just more aware of them (via social media, etc)?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

a girl down in florida, several years back , in a pony car got turned and hit the wall head on , neck snapped and shes dead,i think the hans might have saved her. im not fully sold on the containment seat for my self, but my daughter wears a hans and if she wants, ill get her the seat, shes a little claustrophobic like her ole man, so IDK....

I remember that. Didn't know the type of injury involved. Those cars do have less crush zone than a late model.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

i know there is some testing going on,I'm hoping to know more after pri (after i talk to some of my friends that test vehicle safety equipment,there some very sharp guys,and they have access to test a ton of different ways),someone has told me that the basketball effect is real but they have tested memory form instead of impact foam but i haven't heard any results yet,when you look at a crash (side impact) in slow motion the helmet flexes causing the basketball effect,of coarse its not exactly the same but you can get the idea,but we can all agree that a concussion is better than the alternative, BUT IM NOT CLAIMING TO BE ANY KIND OF EXPERT ON THIS,because of the liability world

A concussion is better than death, if that is the choice. If you are getting 3 concussions a year and your chance of a fatal accident is 1%, then you are making the wrong choice.

[Stede Bonnet]

As someone who knows personally the aids of a full containment seat from my time racing non wing sprint cars in Indiana and crashing them a few times, this idea that a full containment seat is a bad idea because of the possibility of a concussion is asinine at best. If chance of injury is your concern you may want to find a safer sport. Drivers, any and all will be glad to have a concussion from and overly rigid seat as apposed to the alternative of there helmet hitting a concrete wall or (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit sections of sheet metal which have in recent times proven to be WAY more dangerous than a concussion. There are inherent risks in what we do but you are dissecting the micro to sacrifice the macro.

Is it possible that some full containment seats are too rigid causing the problem absolutely, but to suggest all versions of this device are unsafe is a bit much.

The seat will help protect you in a lateral impact something a hans has proven not to do.
Many other factors should be taken into account, do we know for a fact that junior or Brian's helmets fit 100% correctly to prevent as much trauma as possible, it's likely they did fit but does anyone truely know?
Just my .02 cents

Actually I'm NOT arguing that they are too rigid and possibly not all designs have the same issue, but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see putting a round object between two big huge rubber pads may cause a ping-pong effect. A concussion isn't a small thing, especially if your getting them often or concussion like symptoms on a regular basis. Concussions can lead to all sorts of debilitating problems, like early onset dimensia, depression and suicide to name a few, its NOT just a headache. My main argument is against "Mandating" FC seats without all the facts. Basil skull injuries are generally straight ahead(Front to back), that's what the HANS was designed to prevent. I'm also arguing the escapability problem of a DLM equipped with FC, I'd like to see some rule changes that address that. I'm NOT anti-safety, but knee-jerk mandates can be just as bad if not worse than doing nothing.

[RCJ]

Doesn't every time the helmet hits some thing it becomes less effective the next hit?

[Stede Bonnet]

I have to disagree completely with the basketball analogy. From a pure physics standpoint, a basketball bouncing off of any hard surface is a very elastic collision. Helmets and the padding in the full containment seats are specifically designed to absorb the energy of a collision and hence make it an inelastic collision.
I've been using a full containment seat since I started driving a late model and it's the best money I've ever spent. I've been in some VERY hard collisions and I'm a believer that the seat protected me from excessive upper body and head movement that could have lead to rib, back, neck, etc. injuries.
On the HANS deal, I'll say this: I read somewhere that you can sustain a basilar skull fracture at 40 MPH head on impact. Whether it is true or not, it lead me to buying a HANS. The only reason I stopped wearing last season (after only wearing it twice) was because I came in after hot laps to find my helmet wasn't strapped. Just one of those deals where adding new things to a routine caused me to miss something very basic. Freaked me out so I put it back in the box until I have time to practice the new strapping-in routine associated with wearing it. Which will certainly be done this off-season.

Which kind/brand seat do you use? I think HANS is a great idea too. A lot of people don't understand what a HANS is designed to do, you obviously do.

[keeks]

I bought a nex gen, and the dang thing doesn't fit in my halo vs seat. I'm disappointed that I have to cut up my seat to make the restraint fit.

Has anyone else had to do something like this?

[Stede Bonnet]

Doesn't every time the helmet hits some thing it becomes less effective the next hit?

If your asking if a helmet loses its capability or degrades in performance after an impact, I believe that is correct. Now whether bouncing off the FC sides counts, I couldn't say. I think FC seats are well intended, I'm just not sure its the best way to go. Maybe there aren't more concussions, maybe we just know about more of them because of social media and news coverage in general, I don't know. Is football and auto racing the same thing injury wise? Absolutely not. I was merely trying to raise awareness and have a conversation about seats, concussions and some things I've observed. Today's culture is all to quick to react, both in government and society, all in the name of "safety and security" when tragedy strikes. I just want to make sure we do the right things and don't scrap our "freedom to decide" because something bad occurred. They've already started making suspension rules that make things unnecessarily more expensive, I'd just hate to see a bunch of mandates do anymore damage to our racing economy and it not fix anything.

I am glad to hear what I observed has been noticed by those in the industry and its being looked at. I hate to hear somebody spent a lot of money on a seat that is actually doing him harm, even without having an accident. For me I think it'll be a regular seat and a window net and a headrest that gives way. Maybe they could come up with a device like the HANS that works laterally...

[Matt49]

I didn't notice any clearance issues using my Nexgen. This is with a Kirkey containment seat (to also answer Steed's question).

[zeroracing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3gkTezQu7k

I am a believer in single piece suits, full containment seats and head/neck restraints.

[Krooser]

that head support no doubt absorbed some energy... the drivers neck/head still moved a lot but not as much as if he didn't have that support.

I like the old horse collar to help keep the neck stable... not sold on FC seats unless the driver can exit the car fast enough to avoid injury from fire. Same with the safety crew... we build too many cars that can keep the driver from easily being extracted from the car in an emergency.

[rakracing]

i believe you all have good points, my feeling is in 28 years of racing lms the last 8 with a top kirkey fc seat, i never had a issue with a reg kirkey seat with head rest . the problem is a fc seat was designed that the helmet touches the head rest snugg on both sides which no one likes cause ya cant turn your head, mine was ok but didnt like that i couldnt look. i opened it up some and from there on rung my bell more than once. race with a kid that has it all fc seat hans parents got him everything, at 21 hes on his 5th concussion and last one he backed into the wall and it knocked him out,. also seen over the years guys dont have the belts set right submarine belt to long and loose and in a roll over that belt means everything..... all the saftey stuff is great if used right and thats most of the problem....