Concussions, Full Containments Seats and a bouncing ball.

[LM14]

NHRA changed the roll cage padding rules after some drivers were getting concussions during tire shake.

F1 and Indy car helmets fit into a padded pocket and you don't see concussions in those 2 forms of racing.

I've had drivers with Hans and full containment seats take some BIG hits and get out just fine.

I think a possible area to look at is helmet fit (how many helmets really and truly fit the driver correctly?) and different padding of the head side pieces of the containment seat. I would like to see less air space between the side pieces of the seat and the outside of the helmet. With less room to travel before making contact, the velocity of the impact is slowed. If the seat side foam conformed to the helmet sides tighter, that may help. Close up those gaps, keep the helmet from moving freely so much.

Hans is a good piece for what it is designed to do. Many think it will save them in any accident, it won't. It has a very narrow focus of protection as stated by others. Maybe the same amount of testing needs to be taken at containment seats, foam pads, flexibility (I'm not thinking you want them to flex if the seat doesn't) and helmet sizing and fit.

SPark

[grt74]

NHRA changed the roll cage padding rules after some drivers were getting concussions during tire shake.

F1 and Indy car helmets fit into a padded pocket and you don't see concussions in those 2 forms of racing.

I've had drivers with Hans and full containment seats take some BIG hits and get out just fine.

I think a possible area to look at is helmet fit (how many helmets really and truly fit the driver correctly?) and different padding of the head side pieces of the containment seat. I would like to see less air space between the side pieces of the seat and the outside of the helmet. With less room to travel before making contact, the velocity of the impact is slowed. If the seat side foam conformed to the helmet sides tighter, that may help. Close up those gaps, keep the helmet from moving freely so much.

Hans is a good piece for what it is designed to do. Many think it will save them in any accident, it won't. It has a very narrow focus of protection as stated by others. Maybe the same amount of testing needs to be taken at containment seats, foam pads, flexibility (I'm not thinking you want them to flex if the seat doesn't) and helmet sizing and fit.

SPark

maybe its time to think about mirrors in the car or radios,i know in the dirt world most do not like it,but with all the signals by the crew in the stands i really don't see a difference and then at that point you can have a seat that fits tighter around the head area,but i do know that 95% of the time the helmet and the seat are too close to the roll bars,just go to a topless race,it just flat blew me away that some of the helmets were above the roll bar, I'm going to talk to the top seat manufactures and see what they have to say about fitment,i have always been told that if you can slide your hands in on both sides of your helmet,that was about all the space you wanted,but if the helmet needs to be in as some has said a pocket to fix the problem,its time to look at mirrors and or radios,
nascar seats look like there pretty tight around the head area too
were not going to stop it all but this does seem like an easy fix,because of all the info that other racing bodies have,it doesn't seem to be to far fetched to research

[Stede Bonnet]

Who all has which kind of seat and who is getting concussions?
Any links or pics would be nice too.
Thanks.

I've always liked the way Bloomquist does his headrest both side and rear.

[Stede Bonnet]

Heres a quote and a link to an interesting article:

"...Almost all head trauma in automobile racing results from collisions, when the head is shaken violently..." according to Dr. Robert Cantu

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/03/28/racing-concussion-problem-lowering-risk-for-head-injuries-among-nascar-drivers.html

“The important thing for people to understand is that you don’t have to hit your head to have a concussion and don’t have to have been unconscious to have a concussion,” Dr. Stephen E. Olvey, associate professor of clinical neurology & neurosurgery at University of Miami Health System told FoxNews.com. “If the movement of the head is violent enough and the brain hits the inside of the skull, for example, you can still have significant injury or concussion.

[Matt49]

maybe its time to think about mirrors in the car or radios,i know in the dirt world most do not like it,but with all the signals by the crew in the stands i really don't see a difference and then at that point you can have a seat that fits tighter around the head area,but i do know that 95% of the time the helmet and the seat are too close to the roll bars,just go to a topless race,it just flat blew me away that some of the helmets were above the roll bar, I'm going to talk to the top seat manufactures and see what they have to say about fitment,i have always been told that if you can slide your hands in on both sides of your helmet,that was about all the space you wanted,but if the helmet needs to be in as some has said a pocket to fix the problem,its time to look at mirrors and or radios,
nascar seats look like there pretty tight around the head area too
were not going to stop it all but this does seem like an easy fix,because of all the info that other racing bodies have,it doesn't seem to be to far fetched to research

I've always been against mirrors because I feel it might encourage blocking. It sure does in pavement racing. That being said, anybody that has ever driven one of these cars knows how bad visibility is to your left going into a turn. If somebody isn't almost all they way along side of you, you simply can see them. I feel this causes a lot of incidents that could be avoided if the guy on the outside knew he had somebody right next to him.

[Matt49]

This is good discussion and it is obvious that there are a lot of different ideas out there and none of us are experts. That being said, there are obviously people out there that are experts in different areas of safety (seats, HANS, harnesses, fire safety, etc.). It sounds to me like where we are really lacking (as racers) is a complete understanding of how all of these components should work TOGETHER to have the best possible safety "system" in our race cars.
It seems to me that there would be a demand for some sort of safety seminar (much like a chassis setup seminar) that covered a lot of this stuff. Or maybe some of the chassis setup seminar folks should consider bringing in guests that have a focus on safety and incorporating that into their existing program...
...just thinking out loud here...

[fabu100]

I personally think many of us are not buying the correct size helmet. The most important thing when it comes to the proper fit is on the crown of the head. I have seen so many that chose a helmet for comfort and how it fits around the cheeks rather than the top of the head. Shop around and try 5 or 10 different ones till you find the correct one. I am also considering a mouthgaurd. Wore one during my motocross days....

[rakracing]

agree with fabu100 was always a simpson helmet person, but tried diffrent one on at a show and the bell gtx fit my head better than any, been with bell since. something else i'd recommend, couple years ago friend gave me a rib vest protector to use after surgery and have been wherein ever since, fit better in seat and the simpson hybrid doesnt dig in my shoulders

[Brian Gray]

I just want to ad a couple points to this , clarify. One on Jason lefler, first off yes he had top equipment but chose to cut off one side of the head support so he could get in and out of the car easier. COD " blunt force trauma to the neck." End result of wearing a Hans without side protection my opinion. This result has been repeated multiple times over the last few years.

As far as containment seats go there are what I call REAL ones and then there are some misrepresentations. As a 2016 concussion victim I don't blame my seat for a second. I'm thankful I had the equipment I had cause honestly given the violent acts that took place in my wreck I'm positive that without them I wouldn't have walked away without being hurt much worse.

Until we have some uniform way to educate people on the importance of having as well as properly mounting a real containment seat which includes having proper belts and how they should be mounted. I'm not sure a discussion on the topic of such is not doing a disservice to those reading this.

Anyone reading this please don't take anything here as a reason to not equip your car with a real containment seat. Especially if you plan on wearing any type of HANS device. It is a critical component of your personal safety.

[lrnvlFan1w]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1qz7bwsMM4

I found this video and thought it was relevant to what you all are talking about.

This was on the LaJoie Racing Seat website.

Notice the head bouncing.

Keep talking this topic is great.

[riddle28]

im pretty sure weaver, shirley and madden all run joie seats. Not saying that has anything to with it because ive actually been thinking about ordering one at PRI, but that is a common denominator. I believe all were also in longhorns when they got their concussions

[Stede Bonnet]

If I'm not mistaken,"Blunt force trauma to the neck" would be something striking the neck directly or the neck striking something directly, neither has anything to do with basil skull fracture(which is what HANS is designed for). HANS protects ONLY straight ahead, FC designed for side impacts and keeping you stationary.

"According to his team, Leffler was wearing a Simpson Hybrid head and neck restraint system, which is one of six approved for use in NASCAR. A blunt force injury occurs when an object strikes the body with force causing compression of tissue. Head and neck restraints are designed to prevent injuries resulting from deceleration trauma when the body is moving and strikes another moving or stationary object, causing stretching or tearing of body tissue."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nascar/2013/06/13/jason-leffler-cause-of-death-nascar/2421945/

[rakracing]

i used a lajoie seat in a north east modified and they have the hardest head padding ive used with alot of clearance for the head, accually taped and tied extra foam on the head rest

[Brian Gray]

A blunt force injury can also occur from over applied preasure. No impact from a foreign object is needed. It was another way of saying he broke his neck.

My point was I feel that the neck restraint was what caused the motion that negated the injury due to not having a side support. Think of it like the cracking of a whip.

[fastford]

this is a good thread, its got me doing some thinking. I think ill break out the TIG this winter and see what i can concoct. i am concerned about ones head being able to make contact with the wall , so you have to have something for that, but i dont think you have to be as radical as some of the seats ive looked at, along with protection , ive got to be able to see.