Trump and the Ukraine War

[Tyy7777]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-doubts-putin-willing-end-ukraine-war-zelenskyy-rome-rcna203142

Looks like Trump has finally come to his senses on Putin. Only been 8 years. Or has he?

He is so easily manipulated by whoever he speaks to. One meeting with more than one person who shared opposing views and he changes his mind.

Get two people in a room and tell Trump that green is actually orange and he'll hold a press conference tomorrow sharing that sentiment.

[lurker]

ss12? That you??

[Highside Hustler25]

No, it's sleepy Joe.

[lurker]

You sure its not Mcarter815?

[Morgs153]

The roots of this war go back to 1990-91. The fall of the Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc. We made assurances to Gorbachev that NATO would not expand further to the east when discussing the German reunification. It wasn't memorialized in treaty so, we went back on our word. In the 90s Russia was in no shape to do anything but pitch a b!tch about it. In the 90s we had Yeltsin in Moscow and the affable drunk did pretty much what we wanted him to do. One of the things that really peeved the Russians back then was our bombing campaign against the Serbs in the late 90s. But again, they were in no shape to do anything but complain. When Yeltsin was in reelection trouble Clinton sent his operatives to help keep him in power.

So when Yeltsin was done they got Putin. We had hoped he would be a less drunk version of Yeltsin but he wasn't. He's always famously described as the ex-KGB guy to help the evil villain label out. Putin is not a Soviet, he is not a communist, he is a nationalist Russian and yes, he has to deal with his oligarchs and be one himself. It is how he stays in power there. Ukraine had their oligarchs as well. It is interesting to know that when 9/11 happened the very first phone call from a foreign leader to the White House came from Putin. Russia was dealing with their own radical Muslim problem and Putin pledged help the US. Early on in the GWOT we were given intel and granted overflights over Russian territory to prosecute our war efforts. Yeah, he was actually helping us back then. We had a chance back then. We had a chance to help guide Russia closer to a Western sphere of influence and less to a Chinese sphere of influence but we didn't.

I would put a good deal of blame for what happened between Russia and Ukraine at the feet of our CIA, State Dept. and our neo-cons (of both parties). The Orange Revolution of 2004 and most certainly the Maidan Revolution of 2014 had western fingerprints all over them. Ukraine had a duly and fairly elected president back then. One who wanted to trade with the EU and Russia. Who mucked that one up? Who told the World Bank to help foil that deal?

Think back to what happened when countries like Georgia or South Ossetia made overtures toward joining NATO. What happened then? Russia invaded and slapped them down. Did Bush or Obama do a dang thing about it? When Russia took the Crimea in 2014, what did Obama do about it? Not much of anything.

I'm not letting Putin off the hook because I think his actions were primary to this very unfortunate war. But Putin acted in some very predictable fashion. Dangling the carrot of NATO was always a big mistake in regards to Ukraine. Ukraine did not sufficiently have their house in order for such a consideration to be made. Think back to the articles which existed in the year prior to the Russian invasion. Articles by Rueters, The Guardian, NYT, Washington Post, and others. Ukraine had a corruption problem. Ukraine had an oligarch problem. Ukraine had a Nazi problem (in regards to the Azov battalion). Understand something. People in Eastern Ukraine were a majority ethnic Russian and Russian speaking. They were being terrorized by the Azov group.

Go find YouTube videos from the late Stephen Cohen. He passed away a few years back. His wife was Katrina VandenHeuvel from The Nation magazine (not a right winger). He was a one of the most renowned experts on Russia and he was warning of this war happening over ten years ago. John Mearsheimer is another who was warning of this very predictable war long before it happened. Henry Kissinger said it best - to be an enemy of the US is dangerous, to be an ally is fatal.

[Tyy7777]

The roots of this war go back to 1990-91. The fall of the Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc. We made assurances to Gorbachev that NATO would not expand further to the east when discussing the German reunification. It wasn't memorialized in treaty so, we went back on our word. In the 90s Russia was in no shape to do anything but pitch a b!tch about it. In the 90s we had Yeltsin in Moscow and the affable drunk did pretty much what we wanted him to do. One of the things that really peeved the Russians back then was our bombing campaign against the Serbs in the late 90s. But again, they were in no shape to do anything but complain. When Yeltsin was in reelection trouble Clinton sent his operatives to help keep him in power.

So when Yeltsin was done they got Putin. We had hoped he would be a less drunk version of Yeltsin but he wasn't. He's always famously described as the ex-KGB guy to help the evil villain label out. Putin is not a Soviet, he is not a communist, he is a nationalist Russian and yes, he has to deal with his oligarchs and be one himself. It is how he stays in power there. Ukraine had their oligarchs as well. It is interesting to know that when 9/11 happened the very first phone call from a foreign leader to the White House came from Putin. Russia was dealing with their own radical Muslim problem and Putin pledged help the US. Early on in the GWOT we were given intel and granted overflights over Russian territory to prosecute our war efforts. Yeah, he was actually helping us back then. We had a chance back then. We had a chance to help guide Russia closer to a Western sphere of influence and less to a Chinese sphere of influence but we didn't.

I would put a good deal of blame for what happened between Russia and Ukraine at the feet of our CIA, State Dept. and our neo-cons (of both parties). The Orange Revolution of 2004 and most certainly the Maidan Revolution of 2014 had western fingerprints all over them. Ukraine had a duly and fairly elected president back then. One who wanted to trade with the EU and Russia. Who mucked that one up? Who told the World Bank to help foil that deal?

Think back to what happened when countries like Georgia or South Ossetia made overtures toward joining NATO. What happened then? Russia invaded and slapped them down. Did Bush or Obama do a dang thing about it? When Russia took the Crimea in 2014, what did Obama do about it? Not much of anything.

I'm not letting Putin off the hook because I think his actions were primary to this very unfortunate war. But Putin acted in some very predictable fashion. Dangling the carrot of NATO was always a big mistake in regards to Ukraine. Ukraine did not sufficiently have their house in order for such a consideration to be made. Think back to the articles which existed in the year prior to the Russian invasion. Articles by Rueters, The Guardian, NYT, Washington Post, and others. Ukraine had a corruption problem. Ukraine had an oligarch problem. Ukraine had a Nazi problem (in regards to the Azov battalion). Understand something. People in Eastern Ukraine were a majority ethnic Russian and Russian speaking. They were being terrorized by the Azov group.

Go find YouTube videos from the late Stephen Cohen. He passed away a few years back. His wife was Katrina VandenHeuvel from The Nation magazine (not a right winger). He was a one of the most renowned experts on Russia and he was warning of this war happening over ten years ago. John Mearsheimer is another who was warning of this very predictable war long before it happened. Henry Kissinger said it best - to be an enemy of the US is dangerous, to be an ally is fatal.

Firstly, my comments had nothing to do with the war itself. It had to do with Trump being easily manipulated. He isn't the strong man you think he is.

Now onto your comment.

In regards to the comments made to Gorbachev, they were actually taken out of context. We know this because Gorbachev has said so himself. The comments referred strictly to no new military structures in the easter part of the country. Not that this really matters to the rest of your post though (I'm not sure what the point was anyway).

Your description of Putin is quite favorable. He's a dictator. Ok, not ACTUALLY a dictator in a black and white sense. He's really an autocrat but he's a dictator in disguise, let's not get it twisted. The oligarchs fear him, by the way. It's not the other way around like I think you're suggesting.

We had a common problem and Putin wanted to help. Should we give him an award? I don't get your point here.

Beyond the face of it, Russia were in it for their primary interests. They wanted a seat at the big kids table and they wanted the west's help. They also wanted to get guarantees against NATO enlargement. Was this a bad or a good thing? I don't know.

It was Bush who messed this up by the way. This was a symptom of his absolutely horrendous foreign policy.

We gave money to Ukraine during the Orange Revolution but not anyway that had any real effect. During the Maidan Revolution it was much the same but with more intent to strengthen Ukrainian institutions. Think anti-corruption, freedom of the press etc.

The World Bank never got involved. Putin was the one who got involved with the EU trade pact.

In regards to Georgia, it was Bush who did nothing about it.

Obama did way more in regards to Crimea. He secured the suspension of Russia from the G8 and imposed sanctions. He implemented. training programs for Ukrainian soldiers (who were rather embarrassing at the time) which has had a HUGE impact in the current conflict. At the time he was criticized but he did all he could without risking outright aggression which would have seen us lose Ukraine completely and lose any chance at Russian cooperation. It turned out to be an effective response.

I will accept the criticism of Obama that he should have been more wary of Russia after 2008.

I agree with the sentiment that this was somewhat predictable. I say somewhat because the aggressive nature perhaps wasn't as predictable. That doesn't make it right. Putin's insecurities around NATO are the fault of himself and no one else.

Ukraine has had it's issues. The Nazi problem is a stretch and not really true. The part where they terrorize the groups you mention is a narrative in Russian media and hasn't really been proven, at least to a level that would justify such a response.

I can understand why some criticisms of Ukraine are had, but let's not get it twisted. Russia aren't our friends. No country that actively and unnecessarily interferes with our elections is a friend. No country that does what Russia has done to Georgia and Ukraine is a friend.

[Morgs153]

https://youtu.be/P7ThOU4xKaU?si=0t3BLanWdKrUnCDW

Sorry, I don't usually do the "drive by" thing by posting clips but this is worthwhile. Professor Jeffrey Sachs addressing the EU parliament. Professor Sachs is not a Trumper, he's long serving diplomat and advisor.

[Tyy7777]

https://youtu.be/P7ThOU4xKaU?si=0t3BLanWdKrUnCDW

Sorry, I don't usually do the "drive by" thing by posting clips but this is worthwhile. Professor Jeffrey Sachs addressing the EU parliament. Professor Sachs is not a Trumper, he's long serving diplomat and advisor.

I'd prefer you to respond to comment but this'll do I guess?

Firstly, Sachs believes, and has asserted multiple times, that the issues with Russia started with the comment you first mentioned regarding the assurances made to Gorbachev. This has been debunked, as I demonstrated in my comment by GORBACHEV himself. He has a fundamental misunderstanding of this event. Why would I bother to listen to anything else?

Sachs has interviewed with Tucker Carlson. That speaks volumes.

A group of over 340 economists wrote an open letter to Sachs in '23, pointing out the flaws in the comments had regarding the War.

They pointed out how he got BASIC historical facts wrong regarding the Maidan Revolution.

They pointed out the large volume of invasions that took place from the USSR during the 20th century and how that led to those countries joining NATO. Again, some basic historical facts that were this time, not wrong, except not even mentioned.

They also pointed out how, in being given assurances from Russia, Ukraine gave up it's nuclear arsenal. Did Russian aggression stop? No.

They also pointed out how the annexation of Crimea violated various treaties. They did so because Sachs believes that Crimea is "de facto russian".

They pointed out how his viewpoints are directly aligned with that of Russian Propagandists and lack any perspective from that of Ukraine.

They also pointed out how he falsely claims that Ukraine is divided over Russia.


Chatham House (an international affairs thinktank) also echoed the critiques of Sachs NATO fallacy. The majority of International Relations' experts give the same critiques. Sachs has very little credibility on this topic.

Even the few scholars that are sympathetic to Sachs' claims share the view that NATO was not the entire cause of the war.

Sachs is arguably the reason oligarchs exist in Russia. His "shock therapy" was a major factor as to why Russia's economy collapsed in the 90s.

Sachs has also floated the idea that COVID come from US LAB EQUIPMENT.


Sachs also criticized NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia in '99, citing some bull(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) geopolitical claim that they wanted to establish a stronghold there. Let's not forget, if NATO didn't step in, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN A FULL BLOWN GENOCIDE.

The guy is a complete Russian stooge.

[Morgs153]

I'll bet he (Sachs) drives a Tesla as well. Maybe even has some Wagner Group tattoos on his hands.

Sorry, but I think the guy who spent decades "in the room" with the players from both sides and with many different and diverse admins on this side probably has some worthwhile experiential knowledge. He's not the only one either.

[Tyy7777]

I'll bet he (Sachs) drives a Tesla as well. Maybe even has some Wagner Group tattoos on his hands.

Sorry, but I think the guy who spent decades "in the room" with the players from both sides and with many different and diverse admins on this side probably has some worthwhile experiential knowledge. He's not the only one either.

And once again you fail to engage in any kind of conversation. This usually happens when Trump supporters have nothing to say.

I pretty clearly laid out how this guy doesn't actually have the slightest clue what he is talking about, be it from the origins of the conflict with NATO, the basic facts of the Maidan revolution and a core misunderstanding of what happened with Crimea.

Sachs HAS NOT worked "on both sides". He worked with Yeltsin in the early 90s and hasn't had anything to do with Russia since he ruined their economy and allowed the rise of the oligarch. He hasn't worked with Russia and he has never worked as a diplomat in relation to the conflict. He then spent the much of the 00s and 10s working on completely unrelated matters.

He doesn't have experience in this matter. He is clearly a smart individual in some areas but this isn't one of them.

It'd be like saying Trump is a good businessman and dealmaker even though he only got what he wanted in the 70s and 80s through his mafia connection, he went bankrupt after blowing all his money in a record way and even though he doesn't even really sound like he knows ! about anything.


If I had to guess what Sachs' motive is, I'd say he feels guilty about what he did in 1990s Russia and the (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)show he allowed it to become and so as a result he wants to try and defend as much as possible so as to remove as much negative stigma around him.

[lurker]

I pretty clearly laid out how this guy doesn't actually have the slightest clue what he is talking about,

Talk about clueless, you take the cake. And I'm not a Trumper either.

[lurker]

At least when Mcarter815 had an opinion and tried to converse, he sourced his comments, as he further dug the hole he put himself in.

[Tyy7777]

Talk about clueless, you take the cake. And I'm not a Trumper either.

So let me get this straight. I should trust YOU over 340 intellectuals, several international research institutes, historical facts and the words of Gorbachev? Is that correct?

https://web.archive.org/web/20230806...a-ukraine-war/ (The letter which covers all the historical issue he gets wrong)

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/d...achev-says-no/ (Gorbachev's view on the comments made by US officials)

https://www.jeffsachs.org/interviews...wy37m5hfahwnm5 (That's the COVID stuff, from his website lol)

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2023/06...opt-neutrality (Review's the talking point regarding neutrality that Sachs love to talk about)

https://www.academia.edu/66792364/Genocide_in_Kosovo


At any point you can feel free to actually engage in conversation, although given that Trump supporters aren't very intelligent that won't happen. Oh, you want a source for that? Sure.

https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/434055/ (2019 study that showed that people with lower cognitive/verbal ability were significantly more like to vote for Trump)

https://researchportal.plymouth.ac.u...g-support-for- (2017 study that found the same thing through lower cognitive abilities being a predictor for right-wing authoritarianism)

https://news.virginia.edu/content/wh...are-telling-us (Trump supports were far less likely to have a college degree) also see - https://archive.md/2nCxH AND https://www.pewresearch.org/politics...ividing-lines/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359772827_Cognitive-Affective_Styles_of_Biden_and_Trump_Supporters_An_ Automated_Text_Analysis_Study (2022 study that found Trumpers used more categorial (simple, black and white) modes of thinking as opposed to Biden)

[lurker]

No harm no foul, but buddy, I wouldn't trust a word out of your Liberal mouth or anything your left Leaning fingers type.


Engage? Now you’re being funny. I’ve engaged more than you know, you just aren't smart enough to recognize it.


And for the record here on 4m for the umptenth time, I am a moderate to Conservative Libertarian, not a Trumper.


Keep digging your hole.

[lurker]

You don’t even know who Mcarter815 is, do you?