New droop rule

[hucktyson]

You people and by " you people " I mean 95% are absolute clowns . Marlar and Overton are national touring talent that can and do win national touring events. 3-5k to win shows are beneath both of them. McIntosh will be back running those shows by June at the latest. Say 500lb per inch of hike which I think is high unless your running Knoxville or Pittsburgh times 10 inches the top guys will be down that's 5k of downforce.... let's say it's only 2500 ... you don't think that an extra 2500lbs pushing down on the back of the car jamming the rr deeper into a hole doesn't make the car more likely to roll at 130mph ?? It's common sense. 2500/5k in downforce somehow makes racing better ??? It does nothing but make it more expensive. For what ??? So a couple people on here can throw strokes in the sleazy chair watching track records be broken ?? And dudes sit out a year with a concussion ??

[warriorracerg9]

Did wedge cars turn over easier? I realize that they weren't "on the hook" but in your argument downforce is down force right? btw I think you are way off on your numbers. A top fuel dragster makes 10,000 pounds on downforce at 337 mph with a huge wing that is designed in a wind tunnel to do just that. I do agree with you that racing has gotten too expensive but this isn't the way to reign it back in IMO. You cant regress with rules as that only adds expense. You can draw a line and stop progression somewhat but again you cant regress. We race in the southeast mostly with the annual trip to Eldora thrown in and I have rarely seen any track records broken in the last several years. Trying to go backwards with rule packages inherently make racing more expensive. example, If we choose to continue running rays deal we now have to spend money renting tracks, wearing out tires, motors, cars etc to figure out how to be competitive again? basically throw our existing notebook away and start over. I get what you are saying but I respectfully disagree with you that it will make racing cheaper. take asphalt late models for example, they continued to change to rules and now what? they are basically extinct. BTW I am all for safety especially now that I am older and have 2 children but trying to tell me that limiting droop is for my safety is a joke. Its like telling me you are feeding me a steak but I good and well its liver.

[CageFaraday]

Did wedge cars turn over easier? I realize that they weren't "on the hook" but in your argument downforce is down force right? btw I think you are way off on your numbers. A top fuel dragster makes 10,000 pounds on downforce at 337 mph with a huge wing that is designed in a wind tunnel to do just that. I do agree with you that racing has gotten too expensive but this isn't the way to reign it back in IMO. You cant regress with rules as that only adds expense. You can draw a line and stop progression somewhat but again you cant regress. We race in the southeast mostly with the annual trip to Eldora thrown in and I have rarely seen any track records broken in the last several years. Trying to go backwards with rule packages inherently make racing more expensive. example, If we choose to continue running rays deal we now have to spend money renting tracks, wearing out tires, motors, cars etc to figure out how to be competitive again? basically throw our existing notebook away and start over. I get what you are saying but I respectfully disagree with you that it will make racing cheaper. take asphalt late models for example, they continued to change to rules and now what? they are basically extinct. BTW I am all for safety especially now that I am older and have 2 children but trying to tell me that limiting droop is for my safety is a joke. Its like telling me you are feeding me a steak but I good and well its liver.

Your comparing down force to center of gravity(COG). Todays cars have some of the down force the wedge cars had, but their mechanically induced HIGH COG is what makes them flip. No Wedge cars didn't flip. We went backwards before and it worked out better than anyone could've imagined. Anyone who insults Ray's integrity on what he's saying about why he made this rule, is NOT a man. Ray is one of the few in the sport that actually stands behind what he says, not like the clowns running WoO.

[warriorracerg9]

Well I guess I should tell you that I know and have tremendous respect for Ray cook but I don't have to agree with the rule or why he has imposed it. I am not questioning his integrity as I happen to know that he is an honorable fella. He has called several of us that race with him and I can tell you that no one I know of is in agreement with this rule. don't forget that in racing no matter what the rules are it will always be the have and have nots. the big teams can absorb the cost of rule changes much easier than the smaller local guys and that's exactly where I was going in using asphalt late models as an example. Sure there will be guys that will show up no matter what the rules are but I will leave it at this. Be careful what you wish for.

[Matt49]

Yes, huck's numbers are way off. If late models were generating 5000 lbs of down force we would need about 20 psi in all 4 tires just to keep the sidewalls stood up. Not to mention all of these aluminum body braces and 1/4" bolts would be shredded to pieces. And if they had 5000 lbs of down force they would NEVER turn over unless they went airborne first. As one of the clowns I'm sure he's referring to, I sure am way better at math than the non-clowns.
The uptick in rollovers is because of two things: softer overall suspensions (less roll resistance to get the attitude we want in the cars) and higher dynamic vertical center of gravity due to the lifting of the LR. What Cook has tried to do here is limit the latter with the hope of getting the cars safer. I've met Ray and he seems like a great guy. I don't doubt his integrity and I respect his intent but I think there are WAY simpler ways to do this. It starts by enforcing existing body rules. Get rid of all the "1 inch tolerance" here and "2 inch tolerance" there in the rules. Then (and only then), add a very simple rule that specifies and minimum and maximum nose height all the way across at ride height. Something like 6" minimum and 10" maximum NO TOLERANCE should just about do the trick. Simple to enforce and it would go a long way toward minimizing the affects of the dynamic wedge body. The body rules have gone unenforced and over the years rules have been changed because of the tolerances allowed. Nobody wants to tell a team to reel it in an inch or load up, so they just change the rules to allow it. That's stupid but it's what's been going on for about 30 years. The cars should be "aerodynamic" because the looks appeal to fans. But it shouldn't take 3 people to squeeze the thing into a trailer.
Quick Ray Cook story as it is ironic that the topic was the cost of racing. I was chatting with him at MasterSbilt and we were quickly tallying up all the specialty tools and equipment that a late model team needs. I said something to the affect of, "the cost of this stuff really starts to add up". He said, "well you don't buy it all the same week". I think about that all the time and try to apply it to how we do things.

[CarolinaDirt]

My original point if he wanted to do this he should have gotten all sanctioning bodies on board like what happened with the Rumley rule. When you go at it alone it only hurts his car counts .

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

My original point if he wanted to do this he should have gotten all sanctioning bodies on board like what happened with the Rumley rule. When you go at it alone it only hurts his car counts .

Lucas went at Rumley rule alone. Others just fell in line.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

There were thoughts that Ray and others were not going along with the Rumley Rules. Ultimately, unfortunately, they did.

[CageFaraday]

Well I guess I should tell you that I know and have tremendous respect for Ray cook but I don't have to agree with the rule or why he has imposed it. I am not questioning his integrity as I happen to know that he is an honorable fella. He has called several of us that race with him and I can tell you that no one I know of is in agreement with this rule. don't forget that in racing no matter what the rules are it will always be the have and have nots. the big teams can absorb the cost of rule changes much easier than the smaller local guys and that's exactly where I was going in using asphalt late models as an example. Sure there will be guys that will show up no matter what the rules are but I will leave it at this. Be careful what you wish for.

Whether you know Ray or not is irrelevant, you accused him of lying about his intentions with the rules and I take issue with that. The winners, will always win and racing on dirt requires adjustments, always has. All this rule is, is an adjustment and you tune accordingly. Will it take a race or 2 to re-balance the car? Yes, well maybe. The argument about testing is flimsy at best, because most smaller teams don't rent tracks and test anyway. If this situation was reversed and you're chassis builder suddenly offered a new setup that would make you faster, you'd hand over the dough without blinking.

When I was first starting out all we got was a base setup and went racing. Each progressive week of racing was another test and we refined the setup(while we raced), as most any team does that has the drive to win. Unless you are racing for a living, I fail to see why renting tracks and whole day testing is necessary. 85% of those involved in racing do it as a hobby of sorts, not a line of work, so the expense of running won't change. You'll still be buying the same tires, the same fuel and going to the same races, only you may need to refine your setup. This is not the earth shattering event some are making out it is.

[warriorracerg9]

I didn't accuse anyone of lying about anything. I said to tell me that its for my own safety is a joke and in my opinion (which I have a right to as do you yours) it is. we have to have these high dollar cells too but no one says anything when someone has a hole clamp on the fuel line to the fuel pump lol. if we are worried about safetythen enforce the rules that are already in place not keep adding new ones. that's the problem with his board. no one can have a difference of opinion without being able to respectfully debate it.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I didn't accuse anyone of lying about anything. I said to tell me that its for my own safety is a joke and in my opinion (which I have a right to as do you yours) it is. we have to have these high dollar cells too but no one says anything when someone has a hole clamp on the fuel line to the fuel pump lol. if we are worried about safetythen enforce the rules that are already in place not keep adding new ones. that's the problem with his board. no one can have a difference of opinion without being able to respectfully debate it.

Are you not saying the rule isn't about safety?

[Kromulous]

I'm with Warrior on this one, safety is kind of on you when you strap into a 900 hp race car made of sheet alum and tube steal. Dont come crying to me when you hit a wall, were all big boys here.

As for flipping over, non issue being beaten to death.

Enforce the rules you got, yes, how about a safety tech inspection? back in my old Karting days, they would safety tech your kart, and you could NOT run if you didn't have all the bolts wire tied, and or captured. All they want to do now is mandate stuff for the racers to buy $1500 dollar seats, fuel cells, and fire devices, mean while you got guys out with stuff half a$$ put together, doesn't make any sense.

[Illtsate32]

Whether you know Ray or not is irrelevant, you accused him of lying about his intentions with the rules and I take issue with that. The winners, will always win and racing on dirt requires adjustments, always has. All this rule is, is an adjustment and you tune accordingly. Will it take a race or 2 to re-balance the car? Yes, well maybe. The argument about testing is flimsy at best, because most smaller teams don't rent tracks and test anyway. If this situation was reversed and you're chassis builder suddenly offered a new setup that would make you faster, you'd hand over the dough without blinking. When I was first starting out all we got was a base setup and went racing. Each progressive week of racing was another test and we refined the setup(while we raced), as most any team does that has the drive to win. Unless you are racing for a living, I fail to see why renting tracks and whole day testing is necessary. 85% of those involved in racing do it as a hobby of sorts, not a line of work, so the expense of running won't change. You'll still be buying the same tires, the same fuel and going to the same races, only you may need to refine your setup. This is not the earth shattering event some are making out it is.

Ya testing is stricly your personal decision no ones saying you have to go blow money on tires, motor etc dont try blaming that on a rule...

[let-r-eat]

Rolling over is an issue. Anyone saying that there haven't been more rollovers in the last few years than in the last 40 years hasn't been to enough dirt track races. Rules should be made with the poor boy racer in mind but often works in the exact opposite manner. Limiting the height of the deck/spoiler/nose are no brainer rules..... like wheelbase/engine type............

[CageFaraday]

Ya testing is stricly your personal decision no ones saying you have to go blow money on tires, motor etc dont try blaming that on a rule...

Try reading my post again... That's what i said, most teams didn't test or rent tracks before this rule, to claim that now as an expense, that is being a bit disingenuous.

...Its like telling me you are feeding me a steak but I good and well its liver.

You're saying Ray is telling you that you're eating steak when you KNOW it is liver. Which is the same thing a as saying Ray is lying to you about his motives behind the new rule. Bottom line, cars flip more now than they ever have and if left unchecked it will get worse as the cars get higher and higher. We've already had at least 1 death and 1 serious burn injury and several concussions related to flipping and these guys all had the "hot shot" FC seats, which helped to trap them in the car as well. Ray, like a lot of more experienced racers can see the writing on the wall and is making a change. I can debate rules all day long, but I won't tolerate anyone insulting or accusing Ray, even in an indirect manner. Ray is one of the few honestly good guys in racing and should be respected as such. Every point I've made with you you side stepped and now want to talk about hose clamps on fuel lines. I'll make my questions more direct:

1. Prior to this rule did you rent tracks and do all day testing to get your current setup?
2. Do you plan to rent a track and test as a result of this rule?