New droop rule

[crownman25]

it something isn't done next year or by the end of the year the nose height will be 20" what about that guy yall mentioned that does not even have a rf fender top? nascar controlled drop with there splitter you got to have rules and control...between high dollar motors and now high dollar cars our sport is dissolving.My first car was a mastersbilt kit car for $7995.00 that was shocks , springs complete roller. ..you can not buy chassis for that now...the one thing that would solve everything would be move the spring back in front hooked to birdcage!!!!!

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

it something isn't done next year or by the end of the year the nose height will be 20" what about that guy yall mentioned that does not even have a rf fender top? nascar controlled drop with there splitter you got to have rules and control...between high dollar motors and now high dollar cars our sport is dissolving.My first car was a mastersbilt kit car for $7995.00 that was shocks , springs complete roller. ..you can not buy chassis for that now...the one thing that would solve everything would be move the spring back in front hooked to birdcage!!!!!

Cash money series will see your last sentence is incorrect.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Want no hike? Monoleaf.

[crownman25]

look guys super racing is like an endangered species ,if you dont figure out what is killing it it will be gone..sure lucas and woo is flourishing in most areas but that because its the only super stuff in certain area and people flock to it but on the local sat night end racing is dying in alot of places...Ray is looking ahead trying to help save the sport...everytime a car rolls I hold my breath that it doesn't go up in flames...

[Illtsate32]

Try reading my post again... That's what i said, most teams didn't test or rent tracks before this rule, to claim that now as an expense, that is being a bit disingenuous. You're saying Ray is telling you that you're eating steak when you KNOW it is liver. Which is the same thing a as saying Ray is lying to you about his motives behind the new rule. Bottom line, cars flip more now than they ever have and if left unchecked it will get worse as the cars get higher and higher. We've already had at least 1 death and 1 serious burn injury and several concussions related to flipping and these guys all had the "hot shot" FC seats, which helped to trap them in the car as well. Ray, like a lot of more experienced racers can see the writing on the wall and is making a change. I can debate rules all day long, but I won't tolerate anyone insulting or accusing Ray, even in an indirect manner. Ray is one of the few honestly good guys in racing and should be respected as such. Every point I've made with you you side stepped and now want to talk about hose clamps on fuel lines. I'll make my questions more direct:1. Prior to this rule did you rent tracks and do all day testing to get your current setup?2. Do you plan to rent a track and test as a result of this rule?

Ya Cage I was just referencing your statement, no I agree with you 100%...

[Bubstr]

I'm not looking for an argument, but lets take a pragmatic look at this droop rule.

Have you ever seen down force flip a car? They build down force into NASCAR and Indy cars to keep them from flipping.

If a Go Kart can bicycle and flip, it not just height.

A lot of late models dig the nose in the dirt and just turn the nose under, so it isn't the low nose.

Fact is, it is the relationship of the roll centers and the center of gravity. Makes you ask why would they do that? Answer is the closer you are to bicycling, the more side bite and forward bite you have. There is also a balance between front and rear that can put you in a tippy condition at times. It's easier to adjust ballast and rear roll center than the front roll center. Stuff happens. This has been true since the first car raced.

So if we change the droop, the crew chief changes roll centers and center of gravity, to try and get some of that bite back. Once again a tippy car at times, with out the down force to help it stay on all four. This doesn't sound like a fix to anyone that understands this.

So, just exactly what are we trying to fix? I suspect it's not getting drivers hurt. So lets look at why they are getting their bell rung. Answers, are cages are lower, containment seats hold that noggen up and in the way for the blow.

It's just my opinion, but droop is not causing broken noggens. The rule should be, so many inches of clearance above the helmet and while we ar at it, easy egress from right or left side. Does this make any sense to you guys?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I'm not looking for an argument, but lets take a pragmatic look at this droop rule.

Have you ever seen down force flip a car? They build down force into NASCAR and Indy cars to keep them from flipping.

If a Go Kart can bicycle and flip, it not just height.

A lot of late models dig the nose in the dirt and just turn the nose under, so it isn't the low nose.

Fact is, it is the relationship of the roll centers and the center of gravity. Makes you ask why would they do that? Answer is the closer you are to bicycling, the more side bite and forward bite you have. There is also a balance between front and rear that can put you in a tippy condition at times. It's easier to adjust ballast and rear roll center than the front roll center. Stuff happens. This has been true since the first car raced.

So if we change the droop, the crew chief changes roll centers and center of gravity, to try and get some of that bite back. Once again a tippy car at times, with out the down force to help it stay on all four. This doesn't sound like a fix to anyone that understands this.

So, just exactly what are we trying to fix? I suspect it's not getting drivers hurt. So lets look at why they are getting their bell rung. Answers, are cages are lower, containment seats hold that noggen up and in the way for the blow.

It's just my opinion, but droop is not causing broken noggens. The rule should be, so many inches of clearance above the helmet and while we ar at it, easy egress from right or left side. Does this make any sense to you guys?

You can not move mass so high and stay below the ridiculously dropped decking.

[a25rjr]

We've all seen the major heavy components get mounted higher and higher and now even the framerails themselves are higher. It would probly call for a new chassis design to get them back down. I don't think that would fly with the racers or mfrers at this time.

The top of the rollcage def needs to be higher. If you have ever seen the video where the sprint car is used as a test sled, the drivers head moves about 6 inches above the rollcage at impact. I know the cars are totally different but there is a correlation of how far those belts stretch upon a sudden impact.

Something def needs to be done before some of our stars are severely hurt or killed! imo

[Bubstr]

You can not move mass so high and stay below the ridiculously dropped decking.

There are more than one way to skin a cat. Moving a engine and tranny up 1 inch is like moving 20 lbs of ballast 10 inches above that deck. Back in the 60s, I filled a upper rear cage tube full of #8 lead shot. It was too much. Just saying the sheet metal isn't what weighs the most.

If you was really intent on reducing down force, the front end is where you should be looking. Raise that nose and let air under it. The difference of air pressure above and below is what causes down force or airplanes to fly. No seal on the front, no skirts, no carb pans and eliminate the venturi effect of those elephant ear fenders. More effective than a droop rule. This will not keep drivers from head injuries. Getting their head out of the way of the track, can solve this. The way it is now, we hold that head up with a containment seat and hons devise and wac it with the weight of the car. Easy to understand if you look with an open mind. That is just the way I see it, not bashing anyone.

[crownman25]

Here is something else Probb. number one cause of rollovers are broken rf shocks ,yes when a car goes into corner loads bump up shock becomes a solid rod then those hollow stem shock shafts snap off or upper shock mount breaks causing the crossmember and rf frame rail to go into the track and flip the car.. this is why we need rules...its dangerous to be racing on a solid rf suspension its going to break....

[let-r-eat]

I personally think it's just a rule that is derived from the progression of DLM racing. I look at McGuire's incident a few years ago. Rolling the car without doing anything more than catching a rut. I've noticed more and more doing this exact same thing. It's usually early in the night on a hooked up track that is rougher than usual due to moisture. You are solid on that RF in a rut and the car snaps loose. I've seen other incidents of cars just plasted sideways in front of the oncoming traffic due to solid RF hitting ruts and the least little bit and they are on their top.

[CageFaraday]

I'm not looking to argue either, matter of fact I agree with you on several points, just not all.

I'm not looking for an argument, but lets take a pragmatic look at this droop rule.

Have you ever seen down force flip a car? They build down force into NASCAR and Indy cars to keep them from flipping.

This statement is 50/50 right and wrong. First, no I have never seen downforce(ie, aerodynamic load) induce flipping. Second, "Downforce" isn't used specifically as an, "Anti-Flipping" measure, although I concede it can help. Down-force/Aerodynamic load is typically sought to add traction by adding downward pressure on the body, which in turn loads the tires thru the suspension, which in turn increases overall traction. This higher traction increases cornering speed capability, which in turn increases overall speed. The pressure does push down on the car and can make flipping more difficult, but its a side effect not the motive.

If a Go Kart can bicycle and flip, it not just height.

A lot of late models dig the nose in the dirt and just turn the nose under, so it isn't the low nose.

I raced Karts for many years and have never seen a kart bicycle or flip without physically being pushed over by another kart. No matter what is done, in racing sometimes things turn over. I will add though, from 1986 to 1997 I only ever saw 3 late models ever turn over. 2 were pushed over in a group by other racers and the other 1 left the track @ over 150 mph, climbed the wall and sailed thru a chain link fence and landed upside down. Since 1998 when the hiking up got started I have lost count of the number of cars that just dig in and flip. You are correct in that the nose piece itself isn't what makes the cars dig in and flip, its a combination of attributes that includes the noses attitude.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlDr0ukyq8I "Its here on video."

Fact is, it is the relationship of the roll centers and the center of gravity. Makes you ask why would they do that? Answer is the closer you are to bicycling, the more side bite and forward bite you have. There is also a balance between front and rear that can put you in a tippy condition at times. It's easier to adjust ballast and rear roll center than the front roll center. Stuff happens. This has been true since the first car raced.

100% correct, no argument in any of this statement.

So if we change the droop, the crew chief changes roll centers and center of gravity, to try and get some of that bite back. Once again a tippy car at times, with out the down force to help it stay on all four. This doesn't sound like a fix to anyone that understands this.

Once again you nailed it. Even with this rule change, the smart people will make adjustments to get the traction back and raising the ballast and changing roll centers will help. The thing is with this new "Droop Rule", even though it refers to droop it really is a, "deck height" rule which brings the ceiling lower and limits how high the ballast can be raised. I'm sure if this works out that in the future if all the racers raise there ballast to adjust and the flipping continues, then the deck height will be made lower until we reach a point of equilibrium.

So, just exactly what are we trying to fix? I suspect it's not getting drivers hurt. So lets look at why they are getting their bell rung. Answers, are cages are lower, containment seats hold that noggen up and in the way for the blow.

It's just my opinion, but droop is not causing broken noggens. The rule should be, so many inches of clearance above the helmet and while we ar at it, easy egress from right or left side. Does this make any sense to you guys?

Once again you are exactly right, droop alone isn't the source of concussions. Its just as you said, the combination of low roof lines and FC seats hold the drivers head up nice and straight like holding a nail before you drive it and whack! These things also contribute to entrapment when the car flips over, small window and if your a larger fellow like me that FC makes it pretty much impossible to go out the RS even sitting upright in the shop. So this is how I believe this solution was arrived at, Ray looked at what was happening and followed the chain of evidence back to the heart of the issue. The heart of the issue is just like you said, the MASS of the car is too high and makes cars more likely to flip. The droop rule isn't about minimizing downforce, its about lowering the ceiling on the height of the mass. Sure a lower deck does reduce downforce, but it isn't the motivator. The bit about the nose height also hinders the ability to "Roll" the car into the attitude where the mass is so high. I agree that racers will simply adjust by moving things around, but this I believe is just the first move in limiting how high the mass can be. Otherwise if they'd wanted to fix the low roof lines, a whole lot of cars would have to be cut up or scrap'd. So what do you do? You either attempt to make the cars less sensitive to flipping or scrap a ton of cars at a huge expense to a lot of people who might not go for it... To me this rule is the simplest with the least expense involved to anyone.

[Kromulous]

I'm sorry but if you go out on a tacky track with ruts on a bump stop and or air shocks, you deserve to flip. Like i said before were all big boys here, take some responsibility.

Never seen a Kart bicycle? on pavement or dirt? hmm my brother passed 3 guys in one corner on 2 wheels, Kart was close 60* degree's form horizontal on 2 wheels. After the race they came whining about cutting off their line LOL... That was the last time we race on pavement, a bunch of follow the leader whiners.

[Bubstr]

We are close enough to agreeing, other than I have seen a dual engine dirt kart bicycle and do wheelies.Think they no longer run them now.

No one is going to rule stupid out of center of gravity height, so the only reasonable thing is to make the cage safer. You could start with a suggestion and a warning that low roof lines will be fazed out by the time today's car needs replaced. That may be too slow or even unfair to the racers that upgrade before it's mandatory, but it's not a easy fix. You could probably fix it faster if chassis makers had a up grade available. Set seat in lower or tilt it, just get that head clearance. Possibly a quick disconnect roof would be the answer for getting out. Even with the fire suppression, it's only a matter of time before one of our drivers turn into a crispy critter again..

[IZZOJR16]

Good reads in this thread fellow 4mers👍👍. Very knowledgeable stuff, learned something from it.