Bobby Pierce on twitter - HELP Cost Limit engine size to 415 - 420. Link.

[Kromulous]

Here is the funny part of it, perspective, i am a crew chief on a SLM, we race weekly around Cincy Ohio. Here is what we do in the Pits, the real deal.

The Big Motor is required in qualifying. That is about the only time you can really use it, and Heat races it is required, otherwise your in the way, and or getting ran over. Ask anyone one here that races, they will agree, all out motor and new tires.

Feature time, track slicks off, your looking for every way possible to de-nut the power plant. Ask Bobby Pierce, he will confirm it, a lot of guys disconnect the aft 2 bbls on the Carb. How much power does that cut off? not sure, there are Carb company's that are making smaller carbs now too, 600 cfms etc. We also retard the timing up to 4 degrees at times, most have a switch in the cab that can do it on the fly.

Also they are now making spacers, the one that is under the carb, that restrict the size of the hole. Its a restrictor plate essentially. It has a couple of effects on the Engine, but the overall purpose is cutting power.

So where does this leave us? Not sure but de-hooking the cars when the track requires the big power is the key, otherwise you just dont need it, and it makes driving in the slick hard. The guys that win the Big shows are very skilled at applying the absolute most power, to maintain the highest speed on the track. Its not easy by any means.

This is a perspective from racing at like Florence Speedway, weekly, most often on the slick side. The more traction available the more power you need, the 2 go hand in hand.

[Car Biz]

Here is the funny part of it, perspective, i am a crew chief on a SLM, we race weekly around Cincy Ohio. Here is what we do in the Pits, the real deal.

The Big Motor is required in qualifying. That is about the only time you can really use it, and Heat races it is required, otherwise your in the way, and or getting ran over. Ask anyone one here that races, they will agree, all out motor and new tires.

Feature time, track slicks off, your looking for every way possible to de-nut the power plant. Ask Bobby Pierce, he will confirm it, a lot of guys disconnect the aft 2 bbls on the Carb. How much power does that cut off? not sure, there are Carb company's that are making smaller carbs now too, 600 cfms etc. We also retard the timing up to 4 degrees at times, most have a switch in the cab that can do it on the fly.

Also they are now making spacers, the one that is under the carb, that restrict the size of the hole. Its a restrictor plate essentially. It has a couple of effects on the Engine, but the overall purpose is cutting power.

So where does this leave us? Not sure but de-hooking the cars when the track requires the big power is the key, otherwise you just dont need it, and it makes driving in the slick hard. The guys that win the Big shows are very skilled at applying the absolute most power, to maintain the highest speed on the track. Its not easy by any means.

This is a perspective from racing at like Florence Speedway, weekly, most often on the slick side. The more traction available the more power you need, the 2 go hand in hand.

Yep we were doing it in the 90's MSD retard on the big big motor (440-446) spacer plates on the smaller ones.

We had a adjustable spacer plate once it was like a carbon fiber material. Never could get it to work because of the force of tightening the nuts done on the carb flanges cool idea though

[formercrewguy]

We had a whole box of different manifold insert sizes. Wide open for qual(usually), and would go smaller as the night progressed,if needed. Changing sizes also meant a gear change(very important). Most teams are doing this nowadays.

[CageFaraday]

cage , you might as well go ahead and add oil shocks and one spring per wheel to your suggestion , which to me makes it a spec class with open motors , I am racing on probably as low a budget as any one on here , but i am fortunate enough to have some equipment and knowledge to build a lot of stuff myself , but for some one on my budget and unable to build a lot of things themselves , i dont see how they could be competitive in SLM under any rules , its done been proven in the "economical" crate classes......

I disagree, I'm not for specifying parts. I say let everyone buy or build what you want, it just has to fit in the same box at the end of the night. That to me is what Super late model was for years, my brain against your wallet. How you got spec parts out of what I said is beyond me, I'm totally the opposite. Once you start throwing on restrictor plates and mandating tires it reduces what was super, to a spec class and that already exists, crate. And crate sucks, period. The only thing worse is the 602 class which is what you described, spec everything, which makes the racing dull and single file, same with hard a$$ spec tires.

[garrett87]

Wide bore motors and the expense is discouraging new and old super late model racers from staying in the class. Not everybody can spend 50 grand on a new wide bore motor. Sorry but I see it all the time. There will come a day when maybe they don't have any field "fillers" then what are they going to do. Ten big teams cant put on a big show worth watching. Guess Ill just stick with crate.

[LithiumGO]

Bobby Pierce on Twitter - An idea to cut some cost - Limit engine size to 415 - 420Link - http://www.twitter.com/BobbyPierce32...07571928133637

I won’t deny Bobby is a talent who improves the Late Model fan experience but I find it odd that a person who goes through cars like Kleenex is pointing fingers at engine costs.

[smooth32]

How many cars has he gone thru? I heard he started the season with 2 and added one more. Doesn't seem to excessive to me.

[CageFaraday]

Wide bore motors and the expense is discouraging new and old super late model racers from staying in the class. Not everybody can spend 50 grand on a new wide bore motor. Sorry but I see it all the time. There will come a day when maybe they don't have any field "fillers" then what are they going to do. Ten big teams cant put on a big show worth watching. Guess Ill just stick with crate.

You speak much truth. We all may have the best ideas on how to go about correcting whats killing DLM, but the powers that be, in typical fashion seem to exist in their own echo chamber. The problem on here is there are multiple POV's, different sides of the fence. The grandstand POV vs The pit POV. To the grandstand crowd that have never raced, its entertainment to them and the cost or foundational health of the sport rarely enters their minds. They just want it wilder, faster, crazier and louder so they don't get bored and wander off. The Pit POV, has 2 camps, "Pre-On The Hook" and "Post-On The Hook".

Those of us blessed to have seen the DLM landscape prior to 98' and lived it, we know that Supers were Supers long before, "Getting up on the bars" was a thing. Since 98' we've watched the foundation of DLM erode and splinter as technologies sprang up to deal with the inherently violent nature of running, "On The Hook". In 86' when I first got involved there was only, "Late Model" no Super moniker was needed and the next class below that was "Cadet or A-Cadet or Sportsman" depending on your track. Late models were full tube frames(2x3) and Cadet/Sportsman was a clip car with an ALL "factory" steel 350 engine, flatop pistons and solid lift cam. To the racers who've only known running, "On the Hook" the idea of not doing that seems foreign and backwards, I get that, but trust us older guys when we say things weren't bad or boring back then and there was plenty of innovation. Engine development(expense) followed the arch of the advancement in technologies surrounding "On The Hook", so to me it stands to reason if you take away the element causing the disease, then the patient should recover.

So far in typical political fashion nobody wants to touch the root of the problem they just keep kicking the can down the road and then essentially socializing the class with a "we're all the same" crate solution. I thought crate was a good idea at first too, but now that has devolved and become as jacked up as Super. We now have companies the do nothing but invent specialized parts and gizmo's just for crate that arent cherap, so that now you may not spend $35K-$55K on an engine but instead spend your savings on a catalog of ,"Low Drag" "Super Lite" crate specific parts.

Personally I don't think Super or Crate or Limited are going to be fixed, there are too many parties now invested in businesses that provide all the specialized parts and pieces that sponsor and lobby for themselves. Its no different than when government starts up a social program, they can't turn it off because it would be political suicide and they like their jobs. Who don't? Its the same with Super, Crate and Limited, the horse is out of the barn and running around in the middle of the interstate, we're covering our eyes and hoping for a good outcome...

While I was thinking about this this morning before I logged on I wondered if building a new class wouldn't be the best solution. Just let Super run its course, it either lives or dies, but maybe re-establishing a Cadet/Sportman class with some of the rule ideas we've mentioned here would be the best solution.

1. 2x2 or 2x3 only frames, no round tube.
2. Only factory engine parts, but allow the newer stuff.
3. No aluminum wheels
4. No enclosed c0ckpits.
5. Narrower tires than late models
6. Any suspension on rear, all shocks/springs in front of axle except canti-lever.
7. All lower forward links must be flat at ride height and longer than 15 inches.
8. No j-bars.
9. Bodies maximum 6 inches from ground including nose. No splitter style noses, no sculpted ears.
10. No bumps stops, 1 Shock/spring per wheel ONLY.

Those are just the quick and dirty items I thought of. I just don't see Late Model existing on a weekly level in any iteration much longer going forward. Blue Collar guys can't afford the time and expense of super and fans don't like watching crates, at least not 602. If you look at the history of each class, follow its progression or digression you can see common threads. Limited lates were healthy until they started allowing after market heads a blocks, then cost started escalating because then engine builders could build in more power over what the factory stuff could withstand. Then add on "On The Hook" accoutre and its a 2 fold disaster. Crate followed a similar arch only they plunged into re-outfitting the entire car to maximize the insufficient output of a 604/602. Racers are gonna spend the money, you just have to make those expenditures less effective instead of going Socialistic and trying to mandate what can be spent. I say let fools be fools.

[fastford]

cage ,we will have to agree to disagree , because to me all all your suggestions adds up to what i consider a spec class where the rules you lay out specify nearly every aspect you can or can not do , other than engine , this class already exists in one form or another , I do agree with you , maybe its best to let SUPERS run its coarse . All of it really boils down to the promoters , and whose toes are they gone step on ,do they cater to the big money guys and there sponsors and keep the budget guy running in the back ,or cater to the budget guy and penalize the ones with the funding to have all the expensive stuff , which hurts the manufacturers of this stuff, and for the promoters , that is a tough one to call....

[Illtsate32]

Yes fastford and cage, wehrs,keyser,afco,integra,penske doesnt want anything to change,and those are the people who are really running this sport...

[Josh Bayko]

cage ,we will have to agree to disagree , because to me all all your suggestions adds up to what i consider a spec class where the rules you lay out specify nearly every aspect you can or can not do , other than engine , this class already exists in one form or another , I do agree with you , maybe its best to let SUPERS run its coarse . All of it really boils down to the promoters , and whose toes are they gone step on ,do they cater to the big money guys and there sponsors and keep the budget guy running in the back ,or cater to the budget guy and penalize the ones with the funding to have all the expensive stuff , which hurts the manufacturers of this stuff, and for the promoters , that is a tough one to call....

His proposed rules obsolete literally everything but the drivetrain. Forcing your all of your competitors to buy completely new rollers and spares isn't going to save anybody a dime.

[mcarter815]

Not at first, but it could in the long term.

[CageFaraday]

His proposed rules obsolete literally everything but the drivetrain. Forcing your all of your competitors to buy completely new rollers and spares isn't going to save anybody a dime.

Now that’s not true JB. You could use the same cars you have with mild updates. I get it, you guys like the “Face down, a$$ up” DLM attitude and can’t imagine running any other way. If y’all are looking for a solution where nobody spends a dime, they don’t exist. We didn’t get here over night or for free. Surgery involves pain, but sometimes we need it to move forward. The only things being obsoleted are bumps, stacked springs, a ridiculously wide nose and changing a bumper. It’s fine I’ve already said my good byes, just waiting on the phone call from the hospital. Nice talking to you guys again, I’m out. Like the fat kid in dodgeball. 😳

[Josh Bayko]

You could not use the current cars with “mild updates” if you require square tube. That’s a whole new chassis at the very least.

[fastford]

i like both you guys , but lets be real , money controls DLM now more than ever , and all our suggestions on an internet forum will never be recognized anyway , and cage , i dont know what you meant with your last couple sentences , but good luck...........