Bobby Pierce on twitter - HELP Cost Limit engine size to 415 - 420. Link.

[Illtsate32]

^^^^^Agreed...

[Cardirt0]

When they killed his Dog that was a Sad Day

[Stefan2k4]

In my opinion, this is not a well thought out idea. Making the engines smaller in displacement is NOT going to make them cheaper or more reliable. They will only wind them higher. All else being equal, a little motor can make as much power as a bigger motor, if you can wind it higher. If all you do is reduce the displacement, this is exactly what they will do. They will start pushing the RPMs higher and this will result in a more expensive and less reliaible engine.

Not sure what this will accomplish. NASCAR engines are 358 cubic inches and have just as much power as our stuff.. only difference is Nascar engines are way MORE expensive

Bingo! And look at the RPMs they are turning those engines are turning. There's a connection there.

If anything, maybe the answer is to go the other way. How much do the Big Block modified engines cost? How long do they run them between rebuilds? Maybe the solution is to go bigger and turn less RPM. Bigger engines would have more torque, so you'd run a higher gear in the rear end and turn less RPMs.

[Clayton_Wetter]

Back in the mid seventies many late models had a 454 big block. I never heard the RPM get real high on them and they could last a long time.

[Josh Bayko]

In my opinion, this is not a well thought out idea. Making the engines smaller in displacement is NOT going to make them cheaper or more reliable. They will only wind them higher. All else being equal, a little motor can make as much power as a bigger motor, if you can wind it higher. If all you do is reduce the displacement, this is exactly what they will do. They will start pushing the RPMs higher and this will result in a more expensive and less reliaible engine.



Bingo! And look at the RPMs they are turning those engines are turning. There's a connection there.

If anything, maybe the answer is to go the other way. How much do the Big Block modified engines cost? How long do they run them between rebuilds? Maybe the solution is to go bigger and turn less RPM. Bigger engines would have more torque, so you'd run a higher gear in the rear end and turn less RPMs.

Big block mods use a steel block and aluminum heads, and are around the same cost as a mid level late model motor. Sure, you don’t twist ‘em as hard and they go longer in between rebuilds, but there wouldn’t be any significant savings. True big block mods are on the decline and they’re exploring lower cost options too.

[kidrock]

I know of a couple track promoters one still at it the other is not and they both tried quite a few things to get more fans in the stands as a matter of fact they even tried specials for the racers and they never showed as well so, sometimes it's more then just a lazy promoter. There is a real problem with getting fans and racers to your local track and one of them is cost.

[Stefan2k4]

As for the discussion of piston speed as Masterbuilt already mentioned that's primarily a function of stroke. Longer stroke equals higher psiton speed. Shorter stroke equals less. Rod length in relation to stroke affects the acceleration and decceleration of the piston and how long it pauses as it changes direction at top and bottom. However, Stroke is the main factor here. Anyway, wide bore motors should reduce piston speed because you need less stroke to get the same displacement. However, the question in my mind is whether piston speed is really the biggest concern. The thing to remember here is we are talking push rod engines here and as you wind them up higher, the valve train will likely be the first point of failure. There's a reason Indy car engines use overhead cams. That's why we commonly see valve train failures in both late model and Nascar engines. At the RPMs they are pushing them to nowadays, it's the weakest link.

[Zonks32x]

No way do I want to see an engine cubic inch limit. They are called Super Late Models for a reason. No Neutered Late Models for me !

Let's really make them SUPER and allow traction control, true "open" cheated up tires, fuel injection, and nitrous.

And when there's 6 cars in the pits for the World, we can all sit there dumbfounded and say, "D@mn, how did this happen?"

[fastford]

there has been some good ideas here and in past threads about saving supers, and i am glad at least some one is trying , but , i am a realist and cant realy see any of it working , and i really wish it would, but take billett and some others idea and restrict aero and go to smaller , harder tires , problem is , the ones with the 10k plus shocks and smashers and dyno,s in the trailer are still gone hook up better than my 2k afco,s. , and like i have said , you keep limiting all performance components one the car, then you have a spec or crate or limited car , not a super...

[CageFaraday]

Less traction = Less need of HP and thus down goes engine costs. I may be in the minority but any rules that attempt to fix the problem by fiddling with the engine output is a non-starter to me. The reason why is because as long as the car is capable of using 850HP racers are going to pressure engine builders to find that lost HP by any means necessary. Also attacking the problem with more engine rules only makes tech'ing the cars that much more difficult and time consuming to go over. Take away the cars ability to hike up and the spring smasher becomes an expensive paper weight. Hike up could be limited by an actual travel limiting chain on the LR, not unlike what Ray Cook is doing only more restricting. Take the nose height closer to the ground like they use to be, around 6 inch from surface and then they can't roll the car over as hard without destroying the nose and further hindering the aero. Now I have no doubt those with resources will do what they can to regain what they can that is lost, but it makes the difference between the haves and have not's much less. Harder tires I don't think are the answer and in my experience always leads to more cheating, ie like the year that Red Headed guy from North GA won the SAS title with bogus D55's he relabeled himself. He did such a good job the Hoosier rep couldn't tell them from the real thing by looking. A good tire rule is open comp/open brand, but you have to run what you qualify on, maybe with the caveat that you can change 1 rear for the heat and 1 for the feature. Pulling in to change tires after a race has started results in a 1 lap penalty, no exceptions. The point is you can achieve the results you want and not make the tech man need to be an engineer to police it and Supers can remain Super, not a limited, crate or spec. As long as the traction remains high, those who can will spend what they have to to be at the front. Another idea to really hurt the hike up potential is to do away with left side j-bars, RS panhard bars only. And ALL forward facing links must be level at ride height and longer than 17 inches.

[Mod Runner]

All good opinions in this thread. I go to SLM races to see the near ultimate in dirt Late Model racing. I am interested in engines and love to see engines pushed to the limit. Blown engines just add to the interest in the race. Sure, I hate to see my favorite drivers blow an engine, but I am always curious as to why the engine blew. If a driver is not blowing engines now and then, I tend to feel he is not pushing the envelope far enough. Racing is kind of survival of the fittest. No matter what type or class of racing there is , there is always a concern of cost being too great. Race car body rules and enforcement may do more to level the playing field then engine size.

[let-r-eat]

I'm a restrictor plate hard tire person. Limit carb size and punch tires. That's the cheapest and easiest way. A $30K powerplant will be for durability only and a good backyard builder can build one that will compete.


Look at the classes that are growing. Sport Mod etc.

[fastford]

cage , you might as well go ahead and add oil shocks and one spring per wheel to your suggestion , which to me makes it a spec class with open motors , I am racing on probably as low a budget as any one on here , but i am fortunate enough to have some equipment and knowledge to build a lot of stuff myself , but for some one on my budget and unable to build a lot of things themselves , i dont see how they could be competitive in SLM under any rules , its done been proven in the "economical" crate classes......

[MotoMatt]

I'm a restrictor plate hard tire person. Limit carb size and punch tires. That's the cheapest and easiest way. A $30K powerplant will be for durability only and a good backyard builder can build one that will compete.


Look at the classes that are growing. Sport Mod etc.

What sport mods are you referring too? IMCA? Almost all of them use the 604 Crate and that worked for about half a season years ago, as quick as they saw the opportunity "approved re-builders" were tearing down brand new ones and going through the bearings and rings, clearance matching, balancing them and selling them for more. And to boot, a lot of them will say for $$$ I will put whatever you want in that thing and seal it up for you...its a joke. Now, do I think its a good class, darn right I do, but the crates have gotten out of hand because at the local level there is no incentive for the track to investigate a sealed crate and the large group of cheaters stay up front.

[mcarter815]

What sport mods are you referring too? IMCA? Almost all of them use the 604 Crate and that worked for about half a season years ago, as quick as they saw the opportunity "approved re-builders" were tearing down brand new ones and going through the bearings and rings, clearance matching, balancing them and selling them for more. And to boot, a lot of them will say for $$$ I will put whatever you want in that thing and seal it up for you...its a joke. Now, do I think its a good class, darn right I do, but the crates have gotten out of hand because at the local level there is no incentive for the track to investigate a sealed crate and the large group of cheaters stay up front.

Sport mods run the 602 and I can get a couple seasons out of one 602 without opening it up. The blueprinting is overrated.