Bobby Pierce on twitter - HELP Cost Limit engine size to 415 - 420. Link.

[Clayton_Wetter]

You speak much truth. We all may have the best ideas on how to go about correcting whats killing DLM, but the powers that be, in typical fashion seem to exist in their own echo chamber. The problem on here is there are multiple POV's, different sides of the fence. The grandstand POV vs The pit POV. To the grandstand crowd that have never raced, its entertainment to them and the cost or foundational health of the sport rarely enters their minds. They just want it wilder, faster, crazier and louder so they don't get bored and wander off. The Pit POV, has 2 camps, "Pre-On The Hook" and "Post-On The Hook".

Those of us blessed to have seen the DLM landscape prior to 98' and lived it, we know that Supers were Supers long before, "Getting up on the bars" was a thing. Since 98' we've watched the foundation of DLM erode and splinter as technologies sprang up to deal with the inherently violent nature of running, "On The Hook". In 86' when I first got involved there was only, "Late Model" no Super moniker was needed and the next class below that was "Cadet or A-Cadet or Sportsman" depending on your track. Late models were full tube frames(2x3) and Cadet/Sportsman was a clip car with an ALL "factory" steel 350 engine, flatop pistons and solid lift cam. To the racers who've only known running, "On the Hook" the idea of not doing that seems foreign and backwards, I get that, but trust us older guys when we say things weren't bad or boring back then and there was plenty of innovation. Engine development(expense) followed the arch of the advancement in technologies surrounding "On The Hook", so to me it stands to reason if you take away the element causing the disease, then the patient should recover.

So far in typical political fashion nobody wants to touch the root of the problem they just keep kicking the can down the road and then essentially socializing the class with a "we're all the same" crate solution. I thought crate was a good idea at first too, but now that has devolved and become as jacked up as Super. We now have companies the do nothing but invent specialized parts and gizmo's just for crate that arent cherap, so that now you may not spend $35K-$55K on an engine but instead spend your savings on a catalog of ,"Low Drag" "Super Lite" crate specific parts.

Personally I don't think Super or Crate or Limited are going to be fixed, there are too many parties now invested in businesses that provide all the specialized parts and pieces that sponsor and lobby for themselves. Its no different than when government starts up a social program, they can't turn it off because it would be political suicide and they like their jobs. Who don't? Its the same with Super, Crate and Limited, the horse is out of the barn and running around in the middle of the interstate, we're covering our eyes and hoping for a good outcome...

While I was thinking about this this morning before I logged on I wondered if building a new class wouldn't be the best solution. Just let Super run its course, it either lives or dies, but maybe re-establishing a Cadet/Sportman class with some of the rule ideas we've mentioned here would be the best solution.

1. 2x2 or 2x3 only frames, no round tube.
2. Only factory engine parts, but allow the newer stuff.
3. No aluminum wheels
4. No enclosed c0ckpits.
5. Narrower tires than late models
6. Any suspension on rear, all shocks/springs in front of axle except canti-lever.
7. All lower forward links must be flat at ride height and longer than 15 inches.
8. No j-bars.
9. Bodies maximum 6 inches from ground including nose. No splitter style noses, no sculpted ears.
10. No bumps stops, 1 Shock/spring per wheel ONLY.

Those are just the quick and dirty items I thought of. I just don't see Late Model existing on a weekly level in any iteration much longer going forward. Blue Collar guys can't afford the time and expense of super and fans don't like watching crates, at least not 602. If you look at the history of each class, follow its progression or digression you can see common threads. Limited lates were healthy until they started allowing after market heads a blocks, then cost started escalating because then engine builders could build in more power over what the factory stuff could withstand. Then add on "On The Hook" accoutre and its a 2 fold disaster. Crate followed a similar arch only they plunged into re-outfitting the entire car to maximize the insufficient output of a 604/602. Racers are gonna spend the money, you just have to make those expenditures less effective instead of going Socialistic and trying to mandate what can be spent. I say let fools be fools.

Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

Actually the fiddle was not even invented yet and Nero was 35 miles away at the time of the fire,staying in his villa at Antium.

[CageFaraday]

JB, I don't think you read the whole thing. The list I put up was for a whole different class, not Supers.

...While I was thinking about this this morning before I logged on I wondered if building a whole new class wouldn't be the best solution. Just let Super run its course, it either lives or dies, but maybe re-establishing a Cadet/Sportman class with some of the rule ideas we've mentioned here would be the best solution.

1. 2x2 or 2x3 only frames, no round tube.
2. Only factory engine parts, but allow the newer stuff.
3. No aluminum wheels
4. No enclosed c0ckpits.
5. Narrower tires than late models
6. Any suspension on rear, all shocks/springs in front of axle except canti-lever.
7. All lower forward links must be flat at ride height and longer than 15 inches.
8. No j-bars.
9. Bodies maximum 6 inches from ground including nose. No splitter style noses, no sculpted ears.
10. No bumps stops, 1 Shock/spring per wheel ONLY.

Those are just the quick and dirty items I thought of. I just don't see Late Model existing on a weekly level in any iteration much longer going forward...

@ Clayton, Well saying he strummed a harp isn't as lyrical. Who said he couldn't fiddle across town anyway and have some "False Flag" operatives setting fires while he poses for photo ops and does a few selfies... LOL

[ZERO25]

You speak much truth. We all may have the best ideas on how to go about correcting whats killing DLM, but the powers that be, in typical fashion seem to exist in their own echo chamber. The problem on here is there are multiple POV's, different sides of the fence. The grandstand POV vs The pit POV. To the grandstand crowd that have never raced, its entertainment to them and the cost or foundational health of the sport rarely enters their minds. They just want it wilder, faster, crazier and louder so they don't get bored and wander off. The Pit POV, has 2 camps, "Pre-On The Hook" and "Post-On The Hook".

Those of us blessed to have seen the DLM landscape prior to 98' and lived it, we know that Supers were Supers long before, "Getting up on the bars" was a thing. Since 98' we've watched the foundation of DLM erode and splinter as technologies sprang up to deal with the inherently violent nature of running, "On The Hook". In 86' when I first got involved there was only, "Late Model" no Super moniker was needed and the next class below that was "Cadet or A-Cadet or Sportsman" depending on your track. Late models were full tube frames(2x3) and Cadet/Sportsman was a clip car with an ALL "factory" steel 350 engine, flatop pistons and solid lift cam. To the racers who've only known running, "On the Hook" the idea of not doing that seems foreign and backwards, I get that, but trust us older guys when we say things weren't bad or boring back then and there was plenty of innovation. Engine development(expense) followed the arch of the advancement in technologies surrounding "On The Hook", so to me it stands to reason if you take away the element causing the disease, then the patient should recover.

So far in typical political fashion nobody wants to touch the root of the problem they just keep kicking the can down the road and then essentially socializing the class with a "we're all the same" crate solution. I thought crate was a good idea at first too, but now that has devolved and become as jacked up as Super. We now have companies the do nothing but invent specialized parts and gizmo's just for crate that arent cherap, so that now you may not spend $35K-$55K on an engine but instead spend your savings on a catalog of ,"Low Drag" "Super Lite" crate specific parts.

Personally I don't think Super or Crate or Limited are going to be fixed, there are too many parties now invested in businesses that provide all the specialized parts and pieces that sponsor and lobby for themselves. Its no different than when government starts up a social program, they can't turn it off because it would be political suicide and they like their jobs. Who don't? Its the same with Super, Crate and Limited, the horse is out of the barn and running around in the middle of the interstate, we're covering our eyes and hoping for a good outcome...

While I was thinking about this this morning before I logged on I wondered if building a new class wouldn't be the best solution. Just let Super run its course, it either lives or dies, but maybe re-establishing a Cadet/Sportman class with some of the rule ideas we've mentioned here would be the best solution.

1. 2x2 or 2x3 only frames, no round tube.
2. Only factory engine parts, but allow the newer stuff.
3. No aluminum wheels
4. No enclosed c0ckpits.
5. Narrower tires than late models
6. Any suspension on rear, all shocks/springs in front of axle except canti-lever.
7. All lower forward links must be flat at ride height and longer than 15 inches.
8. No j-bars.
9. Bodies maximum 6 inches from ground including nose. No splitter style noses, no sculpted ears.
10. No bumps stops, 1 Shock/spring per wheel ONLY.

Those are just the quick and dirty items I thought of. I just don't see Late Model existing on a weekly level in any iteration much longer going forward. Blue Collar guys can't afford the time and expense of super and fans don't like watching crates, at least not 602. If you look at the history of each class, follow its progression or digression you can see common threads. Limited lates were healthy until they started allowing after market heads a blocks, then cost started escalating because then engine builders could build in more power over what the factory stuff could withstand. Then add on "On The Hook" accoutre and its a 2 fold disaster. Crate followed a similar arch only they plunged into re-outfitting the entire car to maximize the insufficient output of a 604/602. Racers are gonna spend the money, you just have to make those expenditures less effective instead of going Socialistic and trying to mandate what can be spent. I say let fools be fools.

That type of car is also known as Nesmith Street Stocks!