Southern All Star Rule Changes For Chevrolet 525 & SAS/SUPR Spec Engines

[slmcrewchief99]

Hey Billet. In case ya'll don't know this. Most of the guys that are running the SUPR spec is now an all aluminum engine. There may be 1 in 10 that run these around here that are the steel block version.

The State Series (MSCCS) lets the guys run what ever engine combo they want but most all the tracks they go to are 8" spoiler only. Some do get a weight break but only with the steel block alum head combo if I remember correctly. Haven't heard anyone complain in several years about this issue.
I've had this debate on here several times. I've made some people mad and I've been called plenty of not so nice things but I will still hold to what I've said before. If you want to run a "525", "Crate", or a "Spec" engine. Then go run that class. They have these kind of series all over the country so stay in that class.
A lot of people don't understand how much that big blade helps. Along with the weight break they get, it becomes a problem. Because of the cylinder head of these, 8200 rpm is about tops for them and 650 hp is what you get. You can't turn them anymore than that because it will float the valvesThat big blade on these small, slick, bull rings will let you get in the corner 2 and 3 lengths deeper than an open car can. Because of the engine down on HP you can go 30, 40, and sometimes 50 points lower on gear. So not only will they get in better but they can lug them way down and just leap off on exit because of the gear. That is the exact reason the these 2 series did what they did. The open engine guys that support them won't follow. The only way to ensure they come is tag the "minority" and add some rules to the spec cars.

[slmcrewchief99]

I copied this off the SUPR Series web site.


2,300 pounds (with driver after race) is mandated for unlimited engines, while cars powered by SUPR spec engines must weigh 2,200 pounds (with driver after race) and GM602/604 or CT525 engines must weigh 2,150 pounds (with driver after race).

Similar to World of Outlaws Late Model Racing Series specifications, with the exception of a 12-inch spoiler (four inches higher than DIRTcar standards) allowed for cars equipped with the SUPR spec engine.

The 1 thing that is left off here is they also get 12" tall spoiler braces with that big blade. That thing is HUGE when you put it up against an 8' spoiler brace.

[billetbirdcage]

Hey Billet. In case ya'll don't know this. Most of the guys that are running the SUPR spec is now an all aluminum engine. There may be 1 in 10 that run these around here that are the steel block version.

I posted this in the tech section

"Not arguing the changing of spoilers and weights per-say, that's another argument but these don't make sense:

1. So you have to weigh 100# more to run an all steel open motor over an open all aluminum engine???
2. the 362 CID Spec engines and open engine is same everything now?
3. You get a 50# weight break to run aluminum head on the steal block over all steel engine????
4. Make your spec engine not spec anymore and get a 50# weight break??????

Hope this is some sort of misprint, LMAO

Seems it'd be easier to just say all engine combo's 2300 with 8" spoilers but 525 crate gets 50# break and 604 gets 100# break and 12" spoiler."


I wasn't trying to get into whether they should get a break or what is fair, just the weird way they wrote the rules makes no sense.

I quit following any of the spec rules after they took the spoiler away in the south after Moyer bitched about it and that's been years ago. We won a lot of races down there with a spec package but quit running the spec's after they did that.

But you should see, it's funny you have to weight more with an all steel engine over an aluminum engine and the weird weights they have listed. Which was my point, just say 2300 for all engines and give break to 525 and 604 if that is what they intended

[slmcrewchief99]

I know where you are coming from Billet. The way they put it on their updated rules is not how I expected to see it. It's like they put Engine/Weights in the wrong order. Doesn't make much sense.
I wasn't trying to "single" you out. Just wasn't sure if you knew some spec's are all aluminum. I have made a few people mad on here about it. We used to run 1 of them also. I am so glad we have got rid of that thing. I'm not a fan of them for darn sure.

[dirtdobber45]

Could it be they changed to keep people like John Ownbey from beat the regs again like he did earlier this year with a steel motor? None of these rules make sence

[slmcrewchief99]

In my opinion DD45, they changed because the series regulars were complaining that the "crutch" that the spec cars have is bigger than they feel are deserved. So the powers to be, took away their crutch.....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

In my opinion DD45, they changed because the series regulars were complaining that the "crutch" that the spec cars have is bigger than they feel are deserved. So the powers to be, took away their crutch.....

This sure happens a lot. There is always a lack of concrete analysis.

[billetbirdcage]

I can say with certainty that with the SAS spec engine, 12" spoiler, and weight break, is for sure better in the slick without a doubt. However if the track is heavy (in Qualifying, heats, or feature) the open have the advantage. If it does slick off by the feature and you didn't dig too big a hole for yourself on starting position, the spec was the way to go. However it usually needs to be a longer race, since many times you may start towards the back of the A if it was reasonably heavy for qualifying and/or heats.

There really just isn't a good way to even up the cars for both conditions, been that way forever. I always thought the best way to even the cars was with weight but you can't really give the specs the break they need because most can't get that light and the open guys will complain if you make then add some over the 2300 they usually run.

Reason I liked the spec was that the purchase and rebuild costs on open vs the Spec was a lot less.

[old fan]

small tracks even things out

[GRT24]

I can say with certainty that with the SAS spec engine, 12" spoiler, and weight break, is for sure better in the slick without a doubt. However if the track is heavy (in Qualifying, heats, or feature) the open have the advantage. If it does slick off by the feature and you didn't dig too big a hole for yourself on starting position, the spec was the way to go. However it usually needs to be a longer race, since many times you may start towards the back of the A if it was reasonably heavy for qualifying and/or heats.

There really just isn't a good way to even up the cars for both conditions, been that way forever. I always thought the best way to even the cars was with weight but you can't really give the specs the break they need because most can't get that light and the open guys will complain if you make then add some over the 2300 they usually run.

Reason I liked the spec was that the purchase and rebuild costs on open vs the Spec was a lot less.

Pretty solid post. The more towards the summer you get the bigger the advantage for the specs and 525s with the spoiler will be.

[dirtdobber45]

The OMG Spring nationals rules open motors 2350 steel block aluminum heads 2300 all others (crates and 362s) 2250 plus you get a 30# weight break for using the hans device and 20# for having a fire extinguisher on board the spoilers are a little different but there mostly 8 inches

[flagone]

I don't mind at all answering questions about the changes. When the spec program began it was about allowing more guys to race that didn't have the bigger budgets. And while there are MANY guys still out there that fit into this category there are just as many guys who have taken advantage of the allowance and spent cubic dollars to have a "better" spec engine. And while there are certainly many parameters placed on those engines some things are not covered. And that is where the program has gone awry.

The only change that SAS made was getting rid of the 12" sides. They had already removed the 12" blades this year. Ray Cook was also already on all 8" blades this year. Carolina Clash has all 8" spoilers. Lucas Oil and WoO are all 8" spoilers. NLMS all 8". MSCCS all 8". UMP all 8". ULMS all 8". So as you can see it is the current trend in the sport.

The ULTIMATE Series made the rule changes in the interest of fair competition and to be in line with the other Series in the region.

My example given here is this: Forget the price tag of either engine for a minute. If I told you that one engine we allow had a distinct advantage at many of the tracks we race at then you would rightfully say that isn't fair. And it isn't. We want every single car to come and race with us. If you know me, you know that is true. I want you to race with us if you have a $5000 engine or a $50,000 engine. We still offer the 604 crate a 12" blade because it needs it. But here is the truth believe it or not - I know what we saw. The specs and 525s are still at an advantage on a slick surface. Not as much as before, but it is still an appreciable difference. But that advantage can also be overcome. So it made sense.

No other series within our region was offering a 12" spoiler option. We saw after some private testing that the tall blade had, in effect, created a pretty big advantage for the 525s and specs. It is our job to try to ensure that the field remains as level as possible. Given that a great number of the tracks that we race at lean to the slick condition we agreed that we should make an adjustment. We still offer a weight break for the 525. We still offer a weight break and spoiler to crates. We still offer a weight break for aluminum/cast iron combos and all cast iron. But we needed to make a change to be fair.

[clayman2]

as the allen Jackson song says there goes the little man !!!!!!

[W2Racing09]

I don't mind at all answering questions about the changes. When the spec program began it was about allowing more guys to race that didn't have the bigger budgets. And while there are MANY guys still out there that fit into this category there are just as many guys who have taken advantage of the allowance and spent cubic dollars to have a "better" spec engine. And while there are certainly many parameters placed on those engines some things are not covered. And that is where the program has gone awry.

The only change that SAS made was getting rid of the 12" sides. They had already removed the 12" blades this year. Ray Cook was also already on all 8" blades this year. Carolina Clash has all 8" spoilers. Lucas Oil and WoO are all 8" spoilers. NLMS all 8". MSCCS all 8". UMP all 8". ULMS all 8". So as you can see it is the current trend in the sport.

The ULTIMATE Series made the rule changes in the interest of fair competition and to be in line with the other Series in the region.

My example given here is this: Forget the price tag of either engine for a minute. If I told you that one engine we allow had a distinct advantage at many of the tracks we race at then you would rightfully say that isn't fair. And it isn't. We want every single car to come and race with us. If you know me, you know that is true. I want you to race with us if you have a $5000 engine or a $50,000 engine. We still offer the 604 crate a 12" blade because it needs it. But here is the truth believe it or not - I know what we saw. The specs and 525s are still at an advantage on a slick surface. Not as much as before, but it is still an appreciable difference. But that advantage can also be overcome. So it made sense.

No other series within our region was offering a 12" spoiler option. We saw after some private testing that the tall blade had, in effect, created a pretty big advantage for the 525s and specs. It is our job to try to ensure that the field remains as level as possible. Given that a great number of the tracks that we race at lean to the slick condition we agreed that we should make an adjustment. We still offer a weight break for the 525. We still offer a weight break and spoiler to crates. We still offer a weight break for aluminum/cast iron combos and all cast iron. But we needed to make a change to be fair.

The same is also true in reverse though. If you forget the price tag, you still have one motor with a very distinct (insurmountable) advantage in a certain track condition. That is open motors on tacky tracks. The 12 inch spoiler didnt even make them equal but taking them away makes it even worse.

[victorylane]

IMO they need to quit lowering these overall weights so guys don't have to have all the lightest, trickest parts available. I feel the cars overall will be safer. 2250 plus 12" blade for the 604 is low enough, 2300 for the 525, 2350 for open engines. And instead of a weight break for the HANS and fire bottle, make it a weight penalty for not having them. Also don't allow carbon fiber except the driveshaft. These rule changes look to me like some of the engine builders were complaining. They don't want their customers thinking about getting a 525 or 604. Also what is wrong with maybe a 10" spoiler as an option. Make rules that make it easier,safer and cheaper to get into a late model not more. Cost has gotten way out of line. I am not a 525 fan or hater, I just see there is definitely a place for them whether its a super late model race or not. JMHO