let's chat

[brad hibbard]

lets bring this "lets chat" thread back to life---
most have read our air cleaner testing with bases and tops
I would like folks to blow holes in our testing---give us new situations to test ---please criticize what we do
we learn from each other---I get out of bed everyday trying to be better
I have thrown away more stuff than most people have used in a lifetime

conversation breeds progress

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[fastford]

start building fords and you want have those problems.....lol.....ii,m a ford man but we build more chevy,s than any thing , I dropped the ball a while back when our local GM certified crate re builder lost his certification and before i knew about it , another shop i know snagged it up , i think it would have been a good thing but i dont know , might have been the biggest head ache ever .....

[ZERO25]

You know im not a Ford guy, but we had a sponsor lined to provide a Ford crate and i kinda like running something different. But we couldnt get the local tracks and series to agree to the same rules! Go figure!

fwiw.....i think the prices of Fords scare our local tracks, you know, the more it cost the better! They are pricey though!

[brad hibbard]

Fastford,
have you looked into the Nesmith (durancelane) program?

the thing about rebuilding and repairing crate engines is the responsibility that you take in not doing anything wrong.
If you get into this, attending as many crate engine builder seminars as possible will help speed the learning curve and steer you from innocent mistakes.
here is a quick example---2 years ago a crate engine builder nearly lost his entire engine building business (not just crate) due to fines and penalties for something he was doing to crate engines.
He was chamfering the oil return holes inside the cylinder head at each end.
this was something he had been doing in all engine builds for many years and never gave it a second thought when doing crate engines.---however nothing like that is permitted in crate racing and he was found illegal and many of his customers needed new cylinder heads which he paid for along with paying some one else to install them because he was ousted from crate engine service.
this guy did not intentionally do anything wrong ---he just didn't have all the information
that was just one example of how things can go bad---the entire engine has strict guidelines
You have to know the rules and guidelines.

Very few people in our shop touch the internals of our crate rebuilds and those that do have extensive training in crate specific procedures.
am I am paranoid?----you betcha----we have all of our marbles in this crate basket and one little slip they will all go rolling away

it's not a bad gig but it is serious and requires attention and specific procedures

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[fastford]

ive made it a long time without this and i will continue , im not a crate fan personally but i do know how to follow rules as written , i have read the protocol GM requires and dont see a problem following them , i do agree , when you take on something as strict as this , you have to dot your I,s and cross your T,s.....

[brad hibbard]

It's the unwritten stuff that bites some in the behind
like chamfering holes---screw in front gally plugs got another guy tossed that I know
pinned oil pump shaft---deburring anything
the book is basic guidelines not complete on all information
if you like repetition then crate engines are good for you

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[fastford]

i have some one that likes repetition and would be great , myself , i like working on different things , which can bite you to , like today , im assembling a 415 sbc with SB2 heads , im the third shop to work on this engine and had to do a lot of extra work that i didnt know about , finally got long block together today and started to get the push rod length length and was gone degree the cam when i noticed something was not right about the lobe placement , this one had me puzzled for a bit and then it hit me , they had gave him a cam for a reverse rotation engine that i figured came from a shop i know were trying this in a drag car 10 years ago , i called comp and gave them the serial number and sure enough , thats where it came from , this was my day.....lol.....

[billetbirdcage]

i have some one that likes repetition and would be great , myself , i like working on different things , which can bite you to , like today , im assembling a 415 sbc with SB2 heads , im the third shop to work on this engine and had to do a lot of extra work that i didnt know about , finally got long block together today and started to get the push rod length length and was gone degree the cam when i noticed something was not right about the lobe placement , this one had me puzzled for a bit and then it hit me , they had gave him a cam for a reverse rotation engine that i figured came from a shop i know were trying this in a drag car 10 years ago , i called comp and gave them the serial number and sure enough , thats where it came from , this was my day.....lol.....

If you don't know, don't use double offset lifters in an SB2 if you don't want lifter issues. Clearance the head so you can use a single offset

Note: Assuming it's a std non SB2 specific block and also talking non key'ed lifters with a tie bar

[fastford]

its a dart little M block , he has off set lifters that he was told to get because the previous builder told him the strait ones would break , the few that ive done , which was several years ago when they were popular , had strait lifters , what do you think billet?

[billetbirdcage]

its a dart little M block , he has off set lifters that he was told to get because the previous builder told him the strait ones would break , the few that ive done , which was several years ago when they were popular , had strait lifters , what do you think billet?

If you use double offset lifters the pressure on the push rods will tend to bow/bend the tie bar and the lifters will toe in or out and skid across the lobe instead of rolling. I've seen this so many times, while some get away with it on a SB2 it usually trashes the lifters in no time and have failure. It doesn't take much clearance on the head for the push rod to use only a single offset. Been too long now but IIRC the exhaust is the one you clearance and use a centered lifter and leave the intake offset.

Why would a straight one break and an offset wouldn't, makes no sense unless he was just talking push rod to head clearance. Most NASCAR take offs where not clearance'd as they used an SB2 block with the lifter bores spread so they used centered lifters (they was flat tappet anyways so couldn't be offset anyways) but people are too lazy to clearance the head and use a single offset.

Ask anyone that has done a lot of SB2 stuff and they will tell you

[fastford]

thanks for the info billet , i will try to explain this to him , but in the end , its up to him , considering he has been trying to get this engine together for 10 years , and listening to a lot of people , i dont know if he will , BTW the heads have been clearance and i stuck a regular lifter in this morning and theres plenty of clearance , he is putting it in a drag car with a bunch of nitros , that he knows nothing about , so i imagine something else will let go before the lifters anyway......

[brad hibbard]

Great to see information being shared with explanation
so many people post stuff that they claim to be fact but in reality it is just a single experience and really isn't valid information
I am glad to see 2 professionals sharinging useful information and possibly creating a relationship that will go on for years to come

hope all works out Mr. Ford
Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[Mopar DLM]

Why are the crates so popular since you can build your own super engine or buy a good used all aluminium engine for the same amount of money or less and race for more money. Is it maybe people think they are on a more even playing field if everyone is supposed to have the same crate engine. Brad should know better than most of us that people will probably still spend whatever it takes to try and gain that 2 extra HP and stay legal or for some just not get caught. After the original cost of the engine then sending it off the get blueprinted you could very easily have 750 HP instead of 450. Just about all the modified guys are on them now. I can't grasp why people wouldn't put together a nice smooth piece that would make 500 hp and 500 FT/LB and last forever with a much lighter rotating assembly. In the late models I know they have people in a box with the rules and that is all you are allowed to run but all the people going to crates in the other classes makes me sick. Has all of racing gone to a monkey see monkey do attitude? Have we lost the majority of the thinkers and builders? I love that a lot of the good people on here still try new things and test things on there own and continue to move the curve on all aspects of racing from the engines to suspension and even the dreaded aero stuff. Keep up the good work and maybe we all learn something new.

[brad hibbard]

Mr. Mopar,
I understand your thoughts and my only answer is ---evolution.
the sport has evolved to a place where the common racer now works a professional job outside of the industry and simply wants to be able to compete on race night -----so ordering up complete packages is now common.
It's not wrong or a bad thing it is just the way things have gone.
I have been in the industry for over 40 years and we used to build almost everything ourselves ----not just engines but suspension components and nearly anything else you can mention but now days you can order just about anything you need to compete with.
but there is a difference between competing and successfully competing and that would be the next step above dial up race cars.
hard work and imagination
those ingredients are still needed to be at the top
crate engines are only an extension of what has evolved in the sport---
when is the last time you cut out a roll bar gusset or chassis tab from piece of 1/8" steel plate with a torch?
when is the last time you welded a set of side gears into a rear end carrier to create a spool?
those are a couple of examples of what we used to do to build a race car but now you buy a pack of gussets for 10 bucks or a spool for $80 and never even consider building your own.
crate engine concept is similar ---it's just what we evolved to

don't stop using that muscle between your ears and will all be OK

hope everyone is healthy and safe
Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[Mopar DLM]

I'm too old school to give in to easy. I'm guilty of tearing off tabs and welding them on again and again. But then again I have to fabricate motor mounts in every chassis we get because all of them come standard with motor mounts for something other than a Dodge. We all worked full time jobs years ago but somehow still managed to work on the racecar too. I guess more of the family was involved with that aspect of racing back then. To many other things need our time and attention these days. As long as we keep people going to the race track it doesn't matter what we race.