GUILTY as charged !

[Aces&Eights]

You're being cheated, for example, when the advertised distance is 400 miles on a 2 mile track but due to GWC the distance ends up actually being 408 or 410 miles. Circumstances will play out differently by adhering to the advertised distance than they would if the race goes an additional 8, 10 or 12 miles, thus in some instances the final results end up being much different than if the race ends at the correct distance.

Thus, a bit of fraud is evident.

The fraud argument is kinda laughable, I mean really, are you an attorney? I don't mind GWC's, I mean racing to the finish is how it is suppose to be. However, what I do mind are bogus debris cautions used to facilitate GWC's because Nascrap doesn't like how the race is gonna finish. Case in point, Larson would already have his first win from last year at Homestead. He put on a driving clinic up next to the wall, but Napcar wanted to create drama and threw one of their "Pseudo-Debris" cautions and ruined an historic drive by Larson.

Lucky Dogs, Chases, Restrictor Plates, Debris Cautions and Downsized Fuel Cells are all attempts to create drama because the racing got boring and predictable. Engines rarely dramtically expire anymore, Tires don't fade or wear out like they once did and the cars stick so well and drive so good they can now hire "Spokes Models" to drive instead of drivers.

Growing up watching or listening to the Cup race on "Sunday" afternoons was what we did while we unloaded and washed the car from the previous nights action with the DLM and a Hobby car. I can remember racing home from church or to a friends house to watch, every single lap. Now I only flip to the Cup race so I can talk about it with my elderly father, who casually watches, that night.

In the 80's & 90's they didn't do 2hr pre-race babbling, at 1pm EST you turned on the TV and within 2 minutes they were doing parade laps while starting lineup scrolled down the screen. 2 Minutes after that we were going green and there was no, "Competition Yellows" so everyone can check their tires... We ran till it was time for fuel and tires or a real caution took place. Simple. Today is way too much coverage, way over saturated, critiqued and managed.

I guess they finally lost me when they introduced the, "COT". I'm not opposed to safety, but that had "Tuner Crowd" written all over that beast. They have lost their identity and seem to want to try and be something else(WWF comes to mind), all in an effort to regain the ratings they once commanded.

Skinny up the tires, Ditch the restrictor plates, Get rid of computers in the pits and Drop the spoliers and splitters, then you'll have something and the drama will come naturally. Rant Complete and your welcome.

[CIRF]

The fraud argument is kinda laughable, I mean really, are you an attorney? I don't mind GWC's,

Nope, I'm not an attorney, 4 years of college was what was required to receive a Bachelor's Degree, and I got that. Unfortunately, I wasn't qualified nor did I possess the resources, smarts or ambition to even entertain dreams of being accepted, let alone be successful in law school.

That being said, the term "fraud" probably borderlines on hyperbole. However, there is degree of truth contained in the term "fraud" as it pertains to the advertised distance of NASCAR Cup races. An advertised 400 mile race may well be several miles in excess of 400 as the process of finishing a NASCAR race is played out within the guidelines of the rules as they are enacted today. So, things may play out that a 400 mile race could actually end up being 410 or 420 miles. Does that satisfy the strict definition of "fraud"? We're not lawyer enough to pass judgement on that specific question but common sense would dictate that there is a certain degree of validity in the use of the word.

Now, if no caution flag laps are counted against the advertised distance of a race then GWC finishes are legitimate. If the yellow flag laps count within the course of a race but not in the event of a caution in the waning stages of the race then that renders a degree of fraudulence to the final distance sum total in miles or laps.That is the case today, thus the possibility of a race not being of the advertised distance is very real.

It's not possible to mix and match the caution periods in regards to whether they count against the advertised distance of the race and still maintain the integrity of the advertised distance.

[old fan]

wow CIRF woke up half way lol, GWC always no matter what though

[buster83]

so if it rains and the race is finished under yellow, so how can it be different finishing under scheduled 400 laps and the yellow flies at the finish.

[CIRF]

buster, an act of God, safety concerns or time limitations (NASCAR is probably not going to attempt to finish a race at 4 AM) is a completely different set of circumstances. Somewhere on the admission ticket it's stated that in the event of inclement weather or darkness, in the case of tracks with no lights, or other circumstances rendering it impossible or unsafe to run the advertised distance the event will be deemed complete. The finishing order will be considered final at the point the event is stopped if the event has reached or gone beyond 50% of the advertised distance.

[mudslinger47]

CIRF, you are ridiculously inconsistent....

[CIRF]

Not really.

One scenario is perpetrated by circumstances beyond the control of the sanctioning body. It is a correct and justifiable policy that dates back to the very birth of the sport. The other is a gimmick that was relatively recently dreamed up by some genius's that wanted to appease a relatively small segment of 3 toothed, genetically deficient perpetual beer drunks. All because they were beer drunk and pissed off and decided to throw full beer cans at the winner on the track because their boy got beat fair and square.

The sport is inherently dangerous enough without some half baked policy that puts equipment, drivers and fans in a position that presents the potential for all three to be unduly and unnecessarily put in harms way.

[old fan]

Nothing was dreamed up the fans spoke and they listened congrats to NASCAR

[CIRF]

Those weren't fans, they were illiterate drunks that somehow found enough cash to purchase a race ticket and enough beer to make themselves even stupider than they are when they're sober (if that's possible), which probably isn't much of the time.

It's no wonder NASCAR popularity has diminished by 50% over the past 10-12 years when the appeasement of stinky, booger eatin', beer guzzlin', beer can throwing morons become a priority in dictating the rules.

[buster83]

will there ever be another season like 1992 when u had three drivers giving a 110% for the championship.

[old fan]

Those weren't fans, they were illiterate drunks that somehow found enough cash to purchase a race ticket and enough beer to make themselves even stupider than they are when they're sober (if that's possible), which probably isn't much of the time.It's no wonder NASCAR popularity has diminished by 50% over the past 10-12 years when the appeasement of stinky, booger eatin', beer guzzlin', beer can throwing morons become a priority in dictating the rules.

guess what they are all fans I am surprised that NASCAR took so long, come on no racer or fan wants to see a race finish under yellow if they do then maybe they are at the wrong sport

[CIRF]

guess what they are all fans I am surprised that NASCAR took so long, come on no racer or fan wants to see a race finish under yellow if they do then maybe they are at the wrong sport

People who throw projectiles in a crowded setting such as a full grandstand and/or at a vehicle with the potential of doing the damage to the human body that a full 12 or 16 oz. beer can will do aren't race fans. They're pond scum with no regard for the people around them or the injuries they could possibly inflict. People who condone and/or encourage this kind of stupidity are worse yet!

We've been attending racing events, mainly circle track events, since we were 8 years old and we're solidly into middle age at this point in time so I'm confident that we're interested in the correct sport. At the time that all this beer can throwing incidents happened we were asked about it by some good, level headed folks who aren't avid race fans and it was impossible to defend the indefensible and it was an embarrassment.

I said at the time NASCAR should have the video of the crowd studied closely and figure out who was throwing the beer cans and contact the ticket purchaser and revoke their tickets and prosecute them with what ever legal options were available. I also said at the time that there needs to be surveillance camera's installed that would make it possible to identify who's in every seat at ever NASCAR track. NASCAR won't do that for business reasons that include the cost of the cameras and some of their clientele would be uncomfortable knowing that they could no longer get away with said stupidity.

[old fan]

that's true but thats not the reason they changed the rule they changed for the betterment of the sport that incident probably triggerd it were the fans wrong yeah bet get over it happens in every major in some time in its history , no races should ever finish under yellow

[CIRF]

By far the best race I ever saw in over 30 years of attending The Indy 500 finished with the yellow and checkered flags being displayed simultaneously. No one there threw full beer cans and very few were dissatisfied with the finish or the outcome. But, there were a whole lot fewer booger eatin', drunken, 3 toothed, beer can chuckin' genetic deficient's in attendance that day 3 years ago at Indy than there were on more than one occasion at NASCAR Cup races at Talladega.

Here is a quote from the always classy and dignified Jimmie Johnson immediately following the display of stupidity at Talladega 9 years ago in July:

"It's terrible," Johnson said. "They are going to hurt someone. I'm sure some cans don't make it on the track. They could hit a kid in the back of the head. That's not a way to show you support our sport. I don't know the logic behind it. I just hope it goes away or these people are identified and prosecuted."

As usual, Jimmie sums it up very well.

[old fan]

Yeah that's 2 incidents so what what does that bring to the table nothing but a interesting side note