let's chat

[SRXSRULE]

"Wouldn't the cylinder heads be grounded through the head studs/bolts? At least on a steel block (crate)...I could see extra grounds on an aluminum block, but just wondering..."

Yes, but not as well as it could be. Most people use sealer on head bolts or studs, thats going to effect the ground. Any corrosion that happens between the block, head gasket, cylinder head are all going to effect this also.

This is easy to check, all you need is a quality DVOM and do a voltage drop test. You can see how good of a connection you really have. In this situation you would put your test leads on the negative battery post and the cylinder head.

[RW57]

Good idea Brad.Here is my topic for debate where I race you can have a clip car with a 3 link rear with a built motor by that I mean 4 eyebrow ft hyper pistons hyd cam no lift rule any carb made ignition vortec heads stock rockers stock rods and crank or equivalent you also run e85 with i do and love what would you guess hp is I guessing 400 +. Now you can run full jig car with 602. I want to build a clone 602 which I can do for around 1500$. The motor i described is hanging on my engine stand which could be a clone with piston and cam change and I have 1500$ in it so cost would be the same when building it just buy right components when building.My proposal to track is this anytime they can walk up say they want to check it .I pull cyl head check it on my dime it's good they seal other head timing cover. This way I reassemble motor not having to pay reseal fee to a builder. I also proposed this to Mike Vaugh as he is wanting me to run an open wheel which requires a 602 . The answer was no as I am one of the few people around he said that can build my own engines HUH. My point to him was this i can afford 1500$ a bit better than I can close to 4 grand. So old guys who do it all are just walking away on count of stuff like this.Marvin Ford who is a good friend of mine told me also a clone 602 would not out run a real 602 did not know why just would not do it..So give me your thoughts on clone 602 and hp on my other engine.I would love to have jig car as used ones are reasonable but motor would be my hold up.I even offered to carry extra wgt with clone but no go on that either.

[brad hibbard]

been a really long day RW57 ---I promise to give you my response soon---I have to head out early in the morning for some engine pick ups but will respond soon---I think I have your answer just want time to explain my thought process

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[RW57]

Great this was a great idea I am a do it all racer and money is a big issue like it is for all racers I just don't like being forced out .Back in my prime 35 yrs ago you out worked out smarted people you needed a trick part you made it not that way anymore thanks for your efforts and time as you have answered basically anything I have ever asked. Yes I miss Dyno Man he was always entertaining.

[ZERO25]

Great this was a great idea I am a do it all racer and money is a big issue like it is for all racers I just don't like being forced out .Back in my prime 35 yrs ago you out worked out smarted people you needed a trick part you made it not that way anymore thanks for your efforts and time as you have answered basically anything I have ever asked. Yes I miss Dyno Man he was always entertaining.

Dynoman is still alive and kicking, the best I can tell from Google!

Alien Race Engines is still open......I will say this, I have a family member that knows him from selling machine shop equipment. He says he's a sharp dude!

[RW57]

I heard that too but some of his ideas were out in left field but you could tell he was pretty sharp.The problem was he got aggravated when people question. I will give him this a lot of things he talked about actually came to pass.He was first person I remember talking about low drag hubs and reducing rolling friction etc.

[brad hibbard]

in response to RW57 engine about a clone 602

GM has done a remarkable job of keeping these engines the same in power and TQ
we have been dynoing these engines since 2006 and have seen very little swing ever in power
we typically have a 3 digit window to call an engine good ---with nothing ever being above that baseline

how would it be possible for individuals to build that same consistency in a "clone" engine?
everyone's natural action is to make it just a "LITTLE" bit better---well guess what --that little bit keeps getting bigger and bigger

if you increase the HP by 1 per cylinder that is a total of 8 HP better---I have never seen any 602 be 8 HP better than another that is not worn out or have an internal issue

I am hoping you can follow my logic and I am up for discussion and debate ---

1 HP per cylinder ---that is very hard for an individual to control when building a "clone"

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[RW57]

I see your logic but my logic on this is it could keep people racing that other wise would have to quit.One of my beefs with crates is the reseal fees I know it's your living but again people like me have to pay to reseal. At my local track you don't even get enough money to pay for reseal after protest the racers have to pull money from their pocket that's not fair to racers .Next question What should protest fee be to cover reseal. Also at my local track people are buying new 602s shipping them off to Tenn to supposedly get them blue printed and make big HP I don't think it's possible to make the HP no they claim what is a good baseline on 602 up.By doing this these people end up with 7500+ in a crate motor.Thanks again.

[RW57]

I don't know if you understood that I pointed out that first tear down was on me anytime anywhere with that hanging over my head there would no logic in me cheating but you are 100 percent correct about people cheating them up .That like the Nesmith street stocks you can run 602 or built 2 barrel basically as long as it's steel head hyd cam it's open season light wgt crank rods etc. All your fast cars have 2 barrel motors. Go to hunt the front and listen to that 2 barrel it's a 15 grand motor I saw where one had a Jay (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)ens 2 barrel motor how in the world can a 602 compete with that.Racing is in trouble and I don't know if it can be saved.Thanks again for what you do.

[fastford]

in response to RW57 engine about a clone 602

GM has done a remarkable job of keeping these engines the same in power and TQ
we have been dynoing these engines since 2006 and have seen very little swing ever in power
we typically have a 3 digit window to call an engine good ---with nothing ever being above that baseline

how would it be possible for individuals to build that same consistency in a "clone" engine?
everyone's natural action is to make it just a "LITTLE" bit better---well guess what --that little bit keeps getting bigger and bigger

if you increase the HP by 1 per cylinder that is a total of 8 HP better---I have never seen any 602 be 8 HP better than another that is not worn out or have an internal issue

I am hoping you can follow my logic and I am up for discussion and debate ---

1 HP per cylinder ---that is very hard for an individual to control when building a "clone"

Brad
www.race-1.com

GM may have strived to keep the engines equal right out of the box , but what about when the " certified " engine builders get a hold of them , wink wink ......i have personally saw hp gains that were still with in the rules , but it was not cheap , im not accusing you personally brad , but you know im right........

[fastford]

by the way , i have saw more than a 1hp per cyl gain just by improving cylinder leak down alone,,,,,

[RW57]

I heard a noted engine builder in GA tell a person at scales one nite on a 602 I can pick you up 50 hp and it will check right but it's gonna cost you bout 2500$ .

[brad hibbard]

from fast ford
by the way , i have saw more than a 1hp per cyl gain just by improving cylinder leak down alone,,,,,

I am not talking about engines that have deficiencies
we have a 3 digit window to call an engine good
we never see anything above that number---including legally blueprinted engines---actually more common is to see less power from a blueprinted engine ---they do spin better and have a quicker acceleration rate, I will give you that but they do not make more power ---many times it is less
are there engines below our tolerance to be called "good" ABSOLUTELY--- but I am not referring to those

you also spoke of "certified" engine builders making gains within the rules---
it all depends on who is looking and I grant you there is stuff going on----there are a few key components that have no physical dimension so it makes them difficult to tech
BUT
there is a group of engine builders that have put dimension to those components that I just spoke of and are presenting to GM for updates into the technical manual-----that will wake up a few of those guys with crazy blast machines
But things like moving the cyl head dowel pins and angle milling the block deck surface have already been pinned in the tech shed that I live in and we certainly cover those areas closely in seminars

the whole concept is not perfect and a lot of people do not care for it but it wouldn't be as big as it is if it was all that terrible and corrupt

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[brad hibbard]

RW57
I understand your thought process and your reasons
I truly believe that you believe you are making equal power
I believe you are following all of the guide lines but what about the guy with the big check book and no scruples?
will he follow the guidelines?
Racers are their own worst enemy (and I include myself in this)
"we" want the rules to be as budget minded as possible to SAVE racing but as soon as we get a sniff of the checkered flag we will get a second mortgage on the house to try and buy some more speed.
problem is money is not always the answer and I promise you more power is rarely the answer

I want to tell you this story----

when my kids started in karting ---I bought thousands of dollars of engines (alot of thousands--LOL)
I spent endless money on tires---and they were mid pack at best----I swore everyone up front was cheating
I didn't have the time to spend on the karts in preparation so I spent money on engines and tires
once I made the time to work on the karts I started seeing success---so I worked harder and continued that rend to a point where our oldest most worn out tires and motors would win from just about any starting spot

I am just trying to tell you that I hear you and I get it----I have been there to

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[RW57]

Thanks Brad for the answers When you get a chance again what do most 602s on gas avg hp wise the most I've seen i think is 360 hp is that a good no from your experience. I think we have talked about before is their really any benefit from the so called blue printing. I know of a racer who bought a supposedly blue printed 604 paid a premium price. He had something go wrong so he carried it to a rebuilder closer to him. When this rebuilder took it apart it was just as it came from gm had never been apart. Needless to say he wasn't very happy.