let's chat

[brad hibbard]

in response to your power numbers---
watching that peak HP # is OK but watching how long it carries is more important
also don't get caught up in only peak #'s
we look at HP and TQ at 3500--4500--5500 and 6200

6200 is NOT my recommendation for target RPM but we use it in evaluation
my recommended target RPM is 6000

we need quite a bit more information to say if your number is "good"
example:
put it on methanol with a stepped header and torque plates and a 750 carb it is ticking the 400 HP #
but come back to the real world of gas --650 carbs and 1 5/8 headers and we are talking 353

we evaluate every engine with the same components including a very specific fuel ---our air is closely controlled
it is absolutely amazing how close the engines are when done that way

your buddy that paid a premium for a blueprinted motor may or may not have been cheated
depending on the year ---many engines are so close to the performance side of the spec that you can't do anything other than give it a good hone job and put some bearings in it
now if it truly hadn't even been pulled apart that would be a good reason to be upset

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[RW57]

Thanks come on guys surely I can't be the only one with a million questions Lol.

[billetbirdcage]

Thanks come on guys surely I can't be the only one with a million questions Lol.

RW57, Not picking on you but I can't see doing a clone for 1500.00. Now granted maybe redoing an existing engine (freshen), but if you add in the value of that engine you can't really say you only have 1500.00 in it. I know where your coming from, but if you sell that engine and use that 1500.00 or whatever it would cost to get it done your probably not that far away from just buying the 602.

As brad said, if you let guy's build clone's where does it stop. Guys will be using factory pistons and installing ring spacers and thin rings. Some of those ring sets are over 1000.00. You just open a can of worms, I get that some of the factory parts are way high for what they are but if you let non OEM parts in, where does it stop?

As far as engines, there is a sucker born every minute. How many times does that extra 10HP or 40HP for that matters really the reason you won a race and would have finished farther back? Guy's are looking for an excuse as to why they are getting beat. While we do have one rebuilt engine (because the guy bought it used when he first started and continues to send it back in and use it), all the other engines are straight from speedway. The engine we started the year with was a used 200 lap trade in for repair deal, that we got from speedway. We don't have a low drag rear end, just the standard full open 1 1/2 ton rear end with a 10" ring gear, no scalloped rotors, and etc. According to Durrence Layne only races we won 9 of 15 and had 15 top 5's. These were fields of anything from 37 cars to as little as 12 at times.

According to rumors competitors have blueprinted engine, 5K low drag rear ends, and etc, yet we supposedly have GPS traction control, Cell phone adjustable shocks and a variety of other things. Now I get it, when a car is fairly dominate I would also wonder if the car was legal. I will take a good handling car any day and be down on power over having power.

A good car can make a factory motor look really good, I'm just not concerned with the engines at all as it's the last place I would spend money. There are exceptions depending on the track but for most tracks all I care about is it runs and is in the ball park of factory power.

All this is about a 604*

[fastford]

while i do agree for the most part with billett and brad , more power will make a difference a lot of times , now if the crate thing had stayed as it was intended ( a beginners class ) hp might be less significant , but when the more well funded teams got involved and could afford the best up to date equipment and you have say ten quality drivers driving them , then that 20 to 30 hp will make a difference , or at least this is what i have seen around my area , this is JMO ,

[brad hibbard]

with the progression of chassis suspensions I agree power does come more into play
But a statement that I make daily is
although I feed my family from engine service if I was the crew chief and my choice was to buy a new RR tire or buy 10HP I am going with the tire

I think we are all about on the same page here

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[RW57]

I have 550 in 60 over short block 600 in vortec heads 100 in claimer an and pump 250 in cam lifters timing set 200 in intake used push rods used rockers well actually 1600. It's not balanced will be on e85. I have old motor with 487 heads lift rule cam on e85 with 600 Holley built same way on my cheaper than dirt budget lol that regularly leaves 10 grand pro built motors in it's dust .I really excited to get this motor in car as I figure new motor is at least 100hp better.When you say ultimate cheap skate that's me Lol. The old motor was good on gas but putting it on e85 made it a beast. Hey its 5 yrs old l freshened it once so if it blows it's been a good one. You are correct I could probably get 2500 out of it and put it toward a 602 but I'm still over a grand short plus what's the fun in that.Lol

[RW57]

Hey Brad another question I use a single roller timing chain instead of a stretchy double roller as I was told on a dyno the single made 8 to 10 more HP maybe because of less stretch who knows this was from a very reliable person that I'm pretty sure you know him. He was also involved in the Ford crate motor that Robert Gant drove that was discussed in another post . Your opinion on the single chain please anyone else using one.

[fastford]

with the progression of chassis suspensions I agree power does come more into play
But a statement that I make daily is
although I feed my family from engine service if I was the crew chief and my choice was to buy a new RR tire or buy 10HP I am going with the tire

I think we are all about on the same page here

Brad
www.race-1.com

you could buy several new tires for what some of these " super tuners " charge for that 10 hp so i personally do agree with your choice.....

[fastford]

hey RW57 , dont give your self to much credit on that cheap skate stuff , most of us ford folks are pretty cheap our selves ....lol.... by the way , i have not heard much out of gant lately , you know any thing ???

[RW57]

No I will ask Marvin next time I see him .I know he raced some at Fort Payne he would come to Rome some but I didn't see him all year when I went.

[brad hibbard]

I am starting to think you guys are talking about the Skoal Bandit --Harry Gant
If so that guy was awesome as was that era of cup racing

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[fastford]

never really thought about it but they might be kin , but robert was a local late model driver that back in the early to mid 2000,s had some success at green valley and other racks in the area , he was like me and loved them ole blue ovals ......old harry was a force to be reckoned with back in the ole skoal bandit days , when nascar actually stood for racing.....

[brad hibbard]

so --I was thinking a little off path but maybe still in the same stable/family
still good discussion

Brad

https://www.race-1.com

[dirty white boy]

311 speedway allowing 602 clones in there budget 602 late model class, gotta add 50 lbs, 25 of it in front of engine plate!! so far every body running a store bought motor, get a 25 lb brake with gm seals!

[RW57]

That's the idea right there .Not everyone has the money to buy a new 602. My frustration comes from the fact no one will even listen to reason about it.They want even consider it. Everything they do to save racer money cost them money.One suggestion was well the motor I have put the money towards a 602 i understand the logic but I'm still money short that I don't have. The difference between my 1500 $ clone and 3800 $ 602 is I can race a season on the difference.Tracks kill me with there bulheaded approach to things they complain car counts are down you present them a partial solution nope can't do that.